MY Accuracy Sucks

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  • Retro
    Warrior
    • Jul 2016
    • 150

    MY Accuracy Sucks

    I'm sure this is covered but I will ask anyway. Sometimes I shoot well and even shoot sub moa. But, frequently I shoot a vertical line. First shot will be where I aim but subsequent shots look like I'm sewing a seam. I try to calm my breathing and think that I am but I'm still struggling for consistency. Any advice would be gladly accepted.
  • Klem
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 3508

    #2
    Can you describe the gun and barrel and the ammunition. How are you shooting the rifle (prone supported, unsupported, bipod, what rest are you using?). What sight system are you using? Hard to say without detail and the more the better.

    Comment

    • rwh
      Warrior
      • Jun 2014
      • 188

      #3
      Also what range are we talking? At 100 yards it sounds like something might be loose on the rifle. At 1000 yards it could be the ammunition.

      Comment

      • LR1955
        Super Moderator
        • Mar 2011
        • 3355

        #4
        Most likely it is primarily you.

        However, before you go with that, make sure the rifle and sighting system is in perfect order.

        When you know there is nothing wrong with the equipment, then we can get into human issues.

        Comment

        • Retro
          Warrior
          • Jul 2016
          • 150

          #5
          OK the gun is built on an Anderson 80% lower with Anderson upper. 20" Odinworks barrel, bolt and carrier, non-adjustable gas block, rifle length gas tube, Odin foregrip, Rock River 2 stage NM trigger, H2 buffer weight with carbine length buffer spring. I just installed an Odin Atlas 6.5 compensator as well. Glass is a Primary Arms 4 -16 x 44 with Primary Arms cantilever scope mount. All of the ammunition is hand loaded and today they were all variations of Hornady 123 Amax. Powders used were H335, CFE 223 with a little bit of IMR 8208 for good measures. The brass was either new or once used Hornady and the primers were CCI 450. All of the loads came straight out of the 2nd edition Grendel book or off of Ammoguide.com. Scope mounts are tight and so are the scope clamps. The temperature was at a balmy 38* with a light breeze from behind. I was shooting on a 100yd range. I was shooting benchrest with with Caldwell bags for support front and rear. On one group I managed to put five rounds into a 1" square. Most of the groups had at least two rounds touching. I only started shooting about a year ago so my skills still aren't the best. I appreciate any and all help the Horde can give.
          Last edited by Retro; 02-02-2017, 02:58 AM.

          Comment

          • A5BLASTER
            Chieftain
            • Mar 2015
            • 6192

            #6
            Did you lap the reciver face and bed the barrel.

            Comment

            • Klem
              Chieftain
              • Aug 2013
              • 3508

              #7
              OK it sounds like most things are in order as much as I can tell from what you have written. Things like lose mounts and rings would certainly blow the groups out but vertical stringing is more specific. Thin barrels heat up quickly, especially when shooting more than 1rd/min (which usually happens in auto loaders). This leads to vertical stringing.

              I note you are using some new cases and some fired. Different neck tensions here mean different velocities. The result on the target will be vertical spread.

              The AR is a difficult platform to shoot as well as a bolt-gun. It's purpose light weight doesn't lend itself to being stable so you have to lock it in. Other things like returning the gun to exactly the same position on the rest after it has recoiled will reduce stringing. Some shooters use a mechanical stop on the underside of their handguard like a barrier stop. Push the gun forward after recoil until the stop comes up against the rest before the next shot.

              If the length of the loads are touching the lands or close to it then the difference between jump and no-jump will definitely result in vertical stringing. Or maybe a high impact and low impact. Loosely held bullets in the neck can shift forward on being loaded into the chamber and come up against the lands. If some do and some don't then you will get stringing.

              These are some mechanical possibilities but potentially the easiest fix is to lock that gun in and fire it at exactly the same position and hold on the rest.

              Comment

              • Retro
                Warrior
                • Jul 2016
                • 150

                #8
                I keep the fired and unfired cases separate when I shoot. I always crimp with a Lee bullet crimping die, I randomly measure with the Hornady comparator and have recently switched to using a single stage press to reload my Grendel. I usually reload in batches that I keep together. The only thing that is different is that I'm running a compensator on the barrel now. I don't know if that would change anything. What's kind of weird is that most of the time I can keep my groups pretty close (pretty close is a relative term for me) within 1" at 100yds.. Today is the first time that I've strung them out (vertical) like this. I'll have a couple of months to think about this as I'm having a shoulder replaced Friday and will be off of the range for a bit.
                Originally posted by Klem View Post
                OK it sounds like most things are in order as much as I can tell from what you have written. Things like lose mounts and rings would certainly blow the groups out but vertical stringing is more specific. Thin barrels heat up quickly, especially when shooting more than 1rd/min (which usually happens in auto loaders). This leads to vertical stringing.

                I note you are using some new cases and some fired. Different neck tensions here mean different velocities. The result on the target will be vertical spread.

                The AR is a difficult platform to shoot as well as a bolt-gun. It's purpose light weight doesn't lend itself to being stable so you have to lock it in. Other things like returning the gun to exactly the same position on the rest after it has recoiled will reduce stringing. Some shooters use a mechanical stop on the underside of their handguard like a barrier stop. Push the gun forward after recoil until the stop comes up against the rest before the next shot.

                If the length of the loads are touching the lands or close to it then the difference between jump and no-jump will definitely result in vertical stringing. Or maybe a high impact and low impact. Loosely held bullets in the neck can shift forward on being loaded into the chamber and come up against the lands. If some do and some don't then you will get stringing.

                These are some mechanical possibilities but potentially the easiest fix is to lock that gun in and fire it at exactly the same position and hold on the rest.

                Comment

                • Klem
                  Chieftain
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 3508

                  #9
                  Looks like you are narrowing it down. Muzzle brakes are not going to string your shots. Brakes will either give you bigger or smaller groups, but even then there will not be much difference. If you are careful with your loading and you are using a fouled barrel that is not heating up quickly then it is down to the shooter.

                  Comment

                  • LR1955
                    Super Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 3355

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Retro View Post
                    OK the gun is built on an Anderson 80% lower with Anderson upper. 20" Odinworks barrel, bolt and carrier, non-adjustable gas block, rifle length gas tube, Odin foregrip, Rock River 2 stage NM trigger, H2 buffer weight with carbine length buffer spring. I just installed an Odin Atlas 6.5 compensator as well. Glass is a Primary Arms 4 -16 x 44 with Primary Arms cantilever scope mount. All of the ammunition is hand loaded and today they were all variations of Hornady 123 Amax. Powders used were H335, CFE 223 with a little bit of IMR 8208 for good measures. The brass was either new or once used Hornady and the primers were CCI 450. All of the loads came straight out of the 2nd edition Grendel book or off of Ammoguide.com. Scope mounts are tight and so are the scope clamps. The temperature was at a balmy 38* with a light breeze from behind. I was shooting on a 100yd range. I was shooting benchrest with with Caldwell bags for support front and rear. On one group I managed to put five rounds into a 1" square. Most of the groups had at least two rounds touching. I only started shooting about a year ago so my skills still aren't the best. I appreciate any and all help the Horde can give.
                    Retro:

                    Vertical stringing from a rest when shooting a AR is about the most common situation you will find. Comes down to how you make your firing position and attentional focus while shooting.

                    So, create a position around how you sit at your bench. The rest and your position together must fit you like a glove and be such that when you look through your sights, you see a decent sight picture without having to shift a bunch of stuff or cock your head in some odd position. Make the rest and your rifle fit you first. It needs to be very firm. You will know when you have something because when you slip into your position and see that it is pointing your rifle for you, and that you have solid control of the rifle, your confidence will come out and you will be able to approach your string knowing that if it doesn't end up right that it wasn't you.

                    Once your position is developed, fire your string in a sustained fire mode, a breath or maybe two between shots as your sight picture settles into something you see as perfect, then your shot. Recover, repeat. I do not advise you look at your group until you have fired your string. Call each shot, too. Then look. Most likely if your position held up for your string, and you focused on sight picture for your shots, you will see performance that is more likely a result of your gear and ammo than you.

                    Something a bit more advanced which should improve your ability to ID a perfect sight picture is for you to have a sketch of your target next to you and once you fired your string, mark on that target where you believe your shots went. Then compare to your actual shooting.

                    LR55

                    Comment

                    • Retro
                      Warrior
                      • Jul 2016
                      • 150

                      #11
                      Thanks for all of the excellent feedback. I really enjoy this forum for its knowledge, communications, willingness to help and civility. I've been on a few other forums and most of them seem to have a certain amount of drama. I have to say the Horde is great and so are the various administrator's and moderator's.

                      Comment

                      • Klem
                        Chieftain
                        • Aug 2013
                        • 3508

                        #12
                        No worries, please let us know how you go.

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          #13
                          One of the biggest things that can help shooting off a bench or even prone is a large rear bag.

                          That will eliminate a lot of the vertical stringing.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                          www.AR15buildbox.com

                          Comment

                          • Retro
                            Warrior
                            • Jul 2016
                            • 150

                            #14
                            I have one of the Caldwell bags with the two ears on it. I usually place the rear of the stock in it then squeeze the ears for more or less elevation. As I said earlier, shooting is a new sport for me. I had never shot an AR style rifle before I built my first one. I've built four of them now and they all shoot very well. The Grendel became my new favorite round the first time out.
                            Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                            One of the biggest things that can help shooting off a bench or even prone is a large rear bag.

                            That will eliminate a lot of the vertical stringing.

                            Comment

                            • LR1955
                              Super Moderator
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 3355

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Retro View Post
                              I have one of the Caldwell bags with the two ears on it. I usually place the rear of the stock in it then squeeze the ears for more or less elevation. As I said earlier, shooting is a new sport for me. I had never shot an AR style rifle before I built my first one. I've built four of them now and they all shoot very well. The Grendel became my new favorite round the first time out.
                              Retro:

                              I know that both LRRP52 and I have posted pretty detailed methods of developing a solid bench platform for the AR and the method of shooting that we use to get consistent results. I can't recall where they are but if you search I am pretty sure you will find them.

                              LR55

                              Comment

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