MY Accuracy Sucks

[Rickc]

This is one of the reasons i like the classic A2 stock on precision ar's. Bag riders make shooting off he bench so much better.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/01/front-and-rear-bag-riders/

[s3silver]

I'm not an expert or competition shooter, but here are some things I've found that really helps me.

After getting into your shooting position try bearing down on the stock with your check with bags underneath while still having good sight picture. Putting enough pressure there will help provide a steady sight picture.

Also, I found that using a bipod up front provides a steadier platform than sandbags. Even an inexpensive bipod will work better than a bag.

After that practice on breathing, trigger pull, levelness of crosshairs, consistency in your routine. By the way, vertical stringing can also mean you're not in a good powder charge node.

[Klem]

I disagree with the bipod being better than a front bag. My experience is that bags and rests beat bipods for accuracy. Bipods however are field expedient.

I agree with the fixed-stock choice for best accuracy in an AR. I also use automatic alignment where you settle the gun in the rest and bags point at the target and then suddenly relax. See how far the gun moves off aim and readjust and try to minimise this. Do this a few times prior to shooting and each time there will be less movement when you release tension as you realise how much you are putting pressure on the gun from various angles. Make sure it can track smoothly in the recoil by pushing it forwards and backwards, slightly. These are relatively light guns so you have to lock them in to prevent jump.

[s3silver]

The reason I like a bipod for the ar is because it prevents rolling on the bag, which can help with scope levelness.

I agree with the fixed stock too. I prefer the A2 also.

[Sticks]

I disagree with the bipod being better than a front bag. My experience is that bags and rests beat bipods for accuracy. Bipods however are field expedient.

I agree with the fixed-stock choice for best accuracy in an AR. I also use automatic alignment where you settle the gun in the rest and bags point at the target and then suddenly relax. See how far the gun moves off aim and readjust and try to minimise this. Do this a few times prior to shooting and each time there will be less movement when you release tension as you realise how much you are putting pressure on the gun from various angles. Make sure it can track smoothly in the recoil by pushing it forwards and backwards, slightly. These are relatively light guns so you have to lock them in to prevent jump.

I kind of use the same manner to get into the "Natural Aiming Position". I will get the sight picture, close my eyes, wiggle my torso and arms a little (nowhere near enough to move the rifle from bags/bipod/rest - more like a cold shiver) then open my eyes to see where the sight picture is. If the reticle is off target, I move my body and pivot the rifle to get back on target, not muscle the rifle back on target. Rinse and repeat.

Works for me. After the shot, the reticle falls right back on target.

[Rickc]

I disagree with the bipod being better than a front bag. My experience is that bags and rests beat bipods for accuracy. Bipods however are field expedient.

I agree with the fixed-stock choice for best accuracy in an AR. I also use automatic alignment where you settle the gun in the rest and bags point at the target and then suddenly relax. See how far the gun moves off aim and readjust and try to minimise this. Do this a few times prior to shooting and each time there will be less movement when you release tension as you realise how much you are putting pressure on the gun from various angles. Make sure it can track smoothly in the recoil by pushing it forwards and backwards, slightly. These are relatively light guns so you have to lock them in to prevent jump.

With a light recoiling rifle like the grendel try free recoil off the bags especially if you have a heavy barrel target rifle.

Set the rifle on the rest and use the rest and bags to get proper sight alignment not your hold on the.gun. Make sure the rear bag is directly under where your cheek contacts the stock and put no more pressure on the stock than required to get proper sight alignment. Make sure the rifle is free to slide back in recoil without hanging up on anything on the bags or rest. Make absolutely sure that you have.removed all parallax from your sight picture. Position your shoulder behind the stock to catch it in recoil but don't put any pressure on the stock.

Now with a steady sight picture and with no pressure on the rifle place the first joint of.your trigger finger on the trigger and begin to put pressure on the trigger straight back until it fires. It should suprise you when it goes off.

You should be able to just slide the rifle forward with your.shoulder back in position for the same sight.picture.

Do it properly 5 times in a row and.it.should be.the best group you have shot.

Warning !!! Don't try this with your 7 mag

[SG4247]

Stop crimping your brass!

Need the neck sized .003"-.005" smaller than the bullet diameter.

Preferably, make all necks the same, so that all bullets seat with the same effort.

[Klem]

With a light recoiling rifle like the grendel try free recoil off the bags especially if you have a heavy barrel target rifle.

Set the rifle on the rest and use the rest and bags to get proper sight alignment not your hold on the.gun. Make sure the rear bag is directly under where your cheek contacts the stock and put no more pressure on the stock than required to get proper sight alignment. Make sure the rifle is free to slide back in recoil without hanging up on anything on the bags or rest. Make absolutely sure that you have.removed all parallax from your sight picture. Position your shoulder behind the stock to catch it in recoil but don't put any pressure on the stock.

Now with a steady sight picture and with no pressure on the rifle place the first joint of.your trigger finger on the trigger and begin to put pressure on the trigger straight back until it fires. It should suprise you when it goes off.

You should be able to just slide the rifle forward with your.shoulder back in position for the same sight.picture.

Do it properly 5 times in a row and.it.should be.the best group you have shot.

Warning !!! Don't try this with your 7 mag

No mate, that's not going to work. Your confidence belies your knowledge of the AR15. You post confidently about reloading associated with heavier bolt-gun rigs and I have no doubt you have experience here but not all shooting and reloading principles transfer to the lighter AR15.

If you had experience with AR15's you would not have posted this so I have to ask...Do you have one?

[Rickc]

No mate, that's not going to work. Your confidence belies your knowledge of the AR15. You post confidently about reloading associated with heavier bolt-gun rigs and I have no doubt you have experience here but not all shooting and reloading principles transfer to the lighter AR15.

If you had experience with AR15's you would not have posted this so I have to ask...Do you have one?

Quite a few. I have an hbar .223 with the PRI delta Forearm that works free recoil quite well. My AR turbo 40 with a 26" kraiger barrel, bagrider forearm and PRS stock national match trigger rides the bags like a benchrest rifle. For my 18" JP lightweight i have a A2 stock with bagrider and a detachable front bag rider. It rides the bags acceptably.

Average group with the turbo 40

[IMG][/IMG]

[Klem]

Rick, thanks for that.

When visitors turned up at the range interested in joining we typically invited them to shoot a few rounds through someone's F-Class gun (unless they looked like a fruit cake). They would get down behind an 8kg rifle with a 3" wide forestock and a heavy varmint or Palma 30" barrel which had been shooting for score all afternoon and pull the trigger. Typically they would get a bullseye every time. Not a V-Bull but at least a bullseye. Ironically most would go away and we'd never see them again - probably wondering where the challenge was in all this.

To make sure it weighed heavier at the front some of us would even channel out the stock and fill it with lead shot encased with resin.

Now, try the same thing in with a 4kg gun with a rounded foreguard and a centre-of-gravity designed for carry and it will jump all over the place and jerk around the barrel axis due to the opposing moment of the barrel's rifling not being checked by a wide, flat front and the shooters hold (or a muzzle brake with offset ports).



If your hands-off doctrine for best ever groups was universal it would be in every military shooting pam across the free world...but it is not. The reason being, assault rifle's are too light. You have to lock them in to get the best results. Horses for courses...what works in Bench Rest does not always translate into AR platform. Heck, even with 8kg guns riding the rests you still need a modicum of control to get the best results.


(apologies for ignoring your 'average' group using this technique. If it helps, I don't post mine. It's the internet and anything can be claimed and posted, and regularly is).

[Rickc]

Klem

I enjoy your post and i believe.you are a very knowledgeable shooter.

I really have.no reason to lie. If you research Robert Whitley's 6mm AR turbo 40 that group is pretty typical.

Also if.you check out his bag rider you will see that it gives an AR a 3" wide forearm like.my bench guns.

I agree i would never use this technique with a standard AR like my stock 5.56 truck gun. But.you build.an AR with a hbar 20" barrel and it will have plenty of.weight forward to track on the bags.

I have gone away from the.12# AR. Only good for.bench. but even my 8# grendel with the bag rider tracks very well.

Try it you will like it

[Klem]

Fit an ultra heavy and/or unusually long barrel to an AR, and then a 3" wide foreguard and you are morphing it into a different gun that compromises the spirit of the original design, which is a combat rifle. It becomes unsuited for the military and hunting. Guys had golf caddy frames to carry their heavy rests and F-Class guns to the mound. Experimental/Unlimited Bench Rest discipline...where does it end? It is easy to morph a light weight AR frame and then enjoy the better groups and different shooting techniques. Even better when your sole focus is accuracy at the expense of everything else. Now sling the same rig and win an Olympic style biathlon or climb up and down caving ladders and swing that around in room combat.

I note the frustration others sometimes have that the 6.5 Grendel cartridge out of an AR15 doesn't go as far as a 6.5Creedmore, or shoot consistently tight groups like a bolt gun. Spend enough money and change the gun and calibre and you can regularly shoot the groups you posted as 'average'. But you have to admit, your hands-off shooting technique will not get you the best groups from the sort of AR's most forum members use (and undoubtedly not the AR the person who started the thread looking for advice has). As for trying the technique myself, I have, and it did not get me the best groups my 8kg target rifle was capable of. So, even with heavier target rifles it still pays to have to have some control over the gun. This forum is not about bench rest guns.

Horses for courses.

[Rickc]

Different strokes for different folks

Don't think many on this forum will be carrying their grendels into battle either

Works for me

[Klem]

Don't think many on this forum will be carrying their grendels into battle either

Probably not.

[Rickc]

Most will be punching paper on the rifle.range. this is the target and competition forum. I believe many on this forum have bought hbar barrel profiles. You know very well how impertant a consistent hold is for.accuracy. Something i have.found that is very difficult for inexperienced shooters. Especially with a lighter gun.