Training....we don't need no stinking training!!

[bwaites]

From the May 2011 American Rifleman:

According to the Army standards and training manual, PAM 350-38 (2009 version), a Regular Army light infantryman should fire about 1,200 rounds a year, assuming he participates in everything: basic marksmanship, day-night qualification, unit live-fire exercises, shooting in NBC gear, thermal and infrared (IR) sights, etc. His Guard and Reserve colleague should expend 660 rounds. But interviews show that almost nobody comes remotely close to that figure. Furthermore, for “plain vanilla” soldiers with access to shooting simulators, and who do not use thermal or IR sights, the specified annual expenditure is 490 rounds for active and 294 for Guard and Reserve.

I shoot about that many (1200) 7mm WSM rounds in a year, between practice and competition, and I shoot a very light F class schedule. I shoot 3-4 times that much Grendel, and 3-4 times that much 5.56.

I shoot about half that in handgun, (I need to shoot handgun more!).

We expect our warfighters to be proficient when they don't shoot any more ammo than some competition courses shoot in 2 days!!

WOW....Just WOW!!

NOT GOOD, NOT GOOD AT ALL!

[RStewart]

All I can say is 'WOW!"

[texasgrunt]

Peacetime between Desert Storm and OIF as a Marine Infantryman I would say we fired about 500 rounds annually. I had a secondary MOS as a range coach, so my count was quite a bit higher. But I always wondered why the range time was so low. Now as for blank ammo, we threw thousands of rounds in the brush every year to avoid the crazy carbon build-up. They usually sent us on high blank count training right before the GC inspection (go figure)! We spent more time cleaning our rifles than actually shooting.

[LR1955]

Bill / Guys:

This is why I view the NRA and the American Rifleman as unreliable sources when it comes to the military. I can't count the number of times some moron from the NRA has made the same stupid statement without stating how they came up with their numbers.

I imagine that their author either used anecdotal evidence or maybe found a STRAC manual (ignoring its date) and did some basic math based off of authorizations and units at full strength.

It may be true for CS and CSS units but it damn sure isn't for the Infantry or SF. And it is only true for the CS and CSS if their Commanders failed to ask for more ammo to train their Soldiers. I have not seen one unit commander at Battalion or Brigade level denied 5.56 because they shot more than their STRAC allowance for a year. This goes along with a CSA policy that originated in the early part of the GWOT where it was emphasized that every Soldier is an Infantryman and must train with their individual weapons.

When Infantry units do CQM training, it is not uncommon for them to blow through 400 - 500 rounds per man per day -- for a number of days. That 1200 number would be used up within three days of any conventional Infantry unit running any sort of CQM training. And they will do this type of training regularly throughout a year. As well as weapons density training, live fire training, zero and qualification, and probably a couple other ammo intensive training subjects I can't remember right now.
Although our guys are far better marksmen than probably any military on earth and particularly the enemies we are fighting today, blowing more ammo out of a carbine doesn't make anyone a better marksman -- combat, competitive, hunter, LEA, etc. That part the Army doesn't get as they still think that if 200 rounds in one day per man is good, 400 rounds in one day must be twice as good.

Siince the GWOT, there has not been any limit on 5.56 ball that I can recall. There has been shortages of 7.62 linked, .50 cal M-2 Ball linked, M-118 SB and LR, and 9mm but the shortages were cleared up relatively quickly -- within a couple of months -- and these shortages occurred circa 2K4 and 2K5.

So, the NRA ought to actually find out the facts by getting actual Class V consumption data, get up to date tables of organization so they can see who in these units uses what types of ammunition, take the TOE authorized personnel numbers and reduce them by 15%, then see how much ammo is consumed by what MOS during a year.

5.56 Ball? I have never seen a Regular outfit not get as much as they wanted, providing they actually requested it.

LR1955

[bwaites]

Thanks LR1955!

The reason I posted was to get your input and input from the other, "been there" guys! This was supposedly from the 2009 manual so its supposedly current.

Do the DM and sniper guys get enough M118 LR? Whats their process and how difficult is it? I know in talking to some of the guys they sometimes had a hard time finding enough for training and qualifying in the past.

[Sniper20]

As far as the sniper guys, I am not attached to a sniper unit, but have a few buddies of mine that are. They don't get to the range every drill weekend, but when they do, they usually have sore shoulders. They claim to do about 100+ rounds a day, and that is for a 2-3 day weekend.

Now on my side of it, I'm an MP in the Guard, and our primary weapon is the M9 pistol (Beretta 92FS) and I am LUCKY to shoot more than 50 rounds a YEAR. Our unit goes to the range once a year to qualify. We get a few "familiarization" rounds, and then the qual rounds. I usually have to go through a few times... Do I ever fail my qual? I only fail (in my eyes) when I score less than 100% hits. I'm quite proficient as I reload and I'm a recreational shooter. Now, for the others in my unit, not so much. So they are put in a lane next to me... see where this is going???

It's really sad because our M4 qual is the same way. We get 9 rounds to sight the rifles in, and then it's to the qual. I'm in a small little detachment, but it's still necessary in my eyes to stay up on your skills. It's like a surgeon that only gets one practice cut before performing triple bypass surgery. I think this is one reason that I'm opposed to the Guard. I love it, but there is just too much politics in it for me. The state claims that they need more funding, but they have all these O-6 and E-9's running around telling all the units how great they are, and they don't even know what our MOS is! Want to save some funding??? Cut officer pay and bull like that (sorry, little off topic there...).

Anyway, I would say those numbers are HIGH for what I have experienced... I have attended the TAG shoot for the state of NE once in my 7 years in the military, even though I have been offered to go MULTIPLE times, but the unit "does not have the funding" from the state. Not sure how they want us to get better when they don't give the opportunity...

[LR1955]

S20:

Everyone. Note I was careful to emphasize Regulars in my comments. Not the Guard or Reserve.

LR1955

[LR1955]

Thanks LR1955!

The reason I posted was to get your input and input from the other, "been there" guys! This was supposedly from the 2009 manual so its supposedly current.

Do the DM and sniper guys get enough M118 LR? Whats their process and how difficult is it? I know in talking to some of the guys they sometimes had a hard time finding enough for training and qualifying in the past.

Bill:

What manual are you referring to and how did the NRA come up with their figures?

DM's may get issued a Enhanced Battle Rifle for a deployment but the unit ends up turning them in so another unit can use them. The Army generally doesn't issue the EBRs soon enough in a pre-deployment cycle for anyone to get trained on them. Also, my personal experience with upwards of about 100 EBR's as of now indicates that most of them shoot issued M-80 ball more consistently than M-118. And I have yet to see an EBR that I would trust with my life.

Once again, there is no ASI or MOS for a DM. They do not have a special rifle or shoot special ammunition -- unless they are issued the EBR on deployment. Some units get the EBR on deployment and others don't. The DM for the most part shoots his issued M-4 Carbine with an ACOG and issued M-855 ball. I do not believe STRAC has a specific authorization for a DM other than a few more rounds of 5.56 M-855 a year if they go that far.

The question about sniper guys getting enough M-118 LR is not the right question to ask as it does not correlate with combat readiness in terms of the conventional side. If the 118 is used for training that has a rational purpose and with standards that can correspond with combat, then the 118 is being used well.

The problem with sniper teams on the conventional side is that most posts do not have sufficient range facilities the sniper teams can use to improve their combat readiness and take advantage of 118.

As for how much 118 a unit can get, we had shortages big time circa 2K4 to maybe 2K6 but we still got enough to prepare guys very well for Iraq and Afghanistan. After about 2K6 a unit could get more 118 but it was harder to get than ball ammo just because it is way more expensive so not as much is produced. If a unit justified its requirement for more 118 very well, I never saw it denied.

No, I can't tell you how many rounds are needed to sustain or improve a conventional sniper as it isn't the quantity of ammo that is an issue. It is the quality and consistency of training and the availability of training ranges for snipers.

LR1955

[Sniper20]

S20:

Everyone. Note I was careful to emphasize Regulars in my comments. Not the Guard or Reserve.

LR1955

I didn't mean to insinuate that this was the regulars way. I know they get much more range time than we do, and especially infantry. I didn't mean to discredit you by any means.

[bwaites]

Bill:

What manual are you referring to and how did the NRA come up with their figures?

Per the original post: According to the Army standards and training manual, PAM 350-38 (2009 version)

DM's may get issued a Enhanced Battle Rifle for a deployment but the unit ends up turning them in so another unit can use them. The Army generally doesn't issue the EBRs soon enough in a pre-deployment cycle for anyone to get trained on them. Also, my personal experience with upwards of about 100 EBR's as of now indicates that most of them shoot issued M-80 ball more consistently than M-118. And I have yet to see an EBR that I would trust with my life.

Once again, there is no ASI or MOS for a DM. They do not have a special rifle or shoot special ammunition -- unless they are issued the EBR on deployment. Some units get the EBR on deployment and others don't. The DM for the most part shoots his issued M-4 Carbine with an ACOG and issued M-855 ball. I do not believe STRAC has a specific authorization for a DM other than a few more rounds of 5.56 M-855 a year if they go that far.

The question about sniper guys getting enough M-118 LR is not the right question to ask as it does not correlate with combat readiness in terms of the conventional side. If the 118 is used for training that has a rational purpose and with standards that can correspond with combat, then the 118 is being used well.

The problem with sniper teams on the conventional side is that most posts do not have sufficient range facilities the sniper teams can use to improve their combat readiness and take advantage of 118.

As for how much 118 a unit can get, we had shortages big time circa 2K4 to maybe 2K6 but we still got enough to prepare guys very well for Iraq and Afghanistan. After about 2K6 a unit could get more 118 but it was harder to get than ball ammo just because it is way more expensive so not as much is produced. If a unit justified its requirement for more 118 very well, I never saw it denied.

No, I can't tell you how many rounds are needed to sustain or improve a conventional sniper as it isn't the quantity of ammo that is an issue. It is the quality and consistency of training and the availability of training ranges for snipers.

LR1955

That helps. I think we all recognize that simply sending rounds downrange is much less effective than appropriate instruction while doing so.