US Army Considers Adopting an Interim Battle Rifle in 7.62NATO: eventually adopt 6.5

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  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    Originally posted by Essayons View Post
    Sounds like the Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) LMG and Carbine, maybe?
    Yeah, probably. Although at first reading I thought perhaps "unconventional" meant bullpup...

    Comment

    • Essayons
      Unwashed
      • Oct 2015
      • 22

      Speaking of unconventional/bullpups, it will be interesting to see how the Desert Tech MDR works in the real world. Lots of flexibility in that platform if it lives up to the hype.

      Comment

      • stanc
        Banned
        • Apr 2011
        • 3430

        Looks like the Marines are joining the Army on the battle rifle bandwagon.

        An RFI has been issued for a multi-caliber rifle capable of firing .264 USA, .260 Remington, and 7.62 NATO, etc, as well as 5.56 NATO.

        RFI: https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=60...24dda8a331abde

        TFB article: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ssors-targets/

        Colt 901, anybody?

        Comment

        • stanc
          Banned
          • Apr 2011
          • 3430

          USSOCOM Weapons Portfolio Overview (page 10): http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2017/armament/Owens.pdf

          6.5mm Ammo Development during FY2018. Intermediate Caliber Sniper Rifle and Carbine to begin fielding late-FY2018.

          6.5mm Machinegun Development FY2018-2019. Intermediate Caliber Machinegun to begin fielding mid-FY2019.

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            Hmmmm, where have I seen this before....

            You end up with:
            Suppressed Glocks
            PDW Compact
            Suppressed Upper Receiver Group M4A1 SOPMOD carbines
            6.5mm Semi Automatic Sniper Support Rifles
            6.5mm Assault Machine Gun
            Advanced Sniper Rifle with integrated systems optics
            .338 Norma Magnum LW Medium Machingun

            That's an appropriate small arms mix for Special Operations units across the services. You can tailor the force adequately, without having to try to pound square pegs in round holes.

            You have several systems for ADVON parties (Glock w/can, PDW, SURG, 6.5 SSR).

            For DA, you have PDW, SURG M4A1, 6.5 SSR, 6.5 AMG, .338NM LWMMG, ASR

            For SR, you have PDW, SURG M4A1, 6.5 SSR, 6.5 AMG

            This is an excellent weapons mix, something a few of you will recall being discussed many years ago here, where 7.62 NATO is slowly displaced and replaced by 6.5mm, while still keeping 5.56 M4 evolution, and developing a compact PDW, as well as a .338 Medium Machinegun with constant recoil.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • stanc
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 3430

              Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
              This is an excellent weapons mix, something a few of you will recall being discussed many years ago here, where 7.62 NATO is slowly displaced and replaced by 6.5mm...
              Alas, I do not recall any thread with a discussion of 7.62 NATO being slowly displaced and replaced by a 6.5mm round like .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor.

              However, for the few of you who on page 1 of this thread scoffed at the report that the Army was considering adoption of a 7.62mm Interim Battle Rifle, I offer the following presentation:

              Project Manager Soldier Weapons http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2017/armament/Stehle.pdf

              PM Soldier Weapons Portfolio (page 4)
              Development
              Directed Requirements
              - Squad Designated Marksman Rifle
              - Interim Combat Service Rifle

              Comment

              • JASmith
                Chieftain
                • Sep 2014
                • 1620

                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                Alas, I do not recall any thread with a discussion of 7.62 NATO being slowly displaced and replaced by a 6.5mm round like .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor.
                I participated in those discussions and, yes, gradually came to understand that replacing the 5.56 with the Grendel would ultimately not work well, but that a 6.5 caliber medium machine gun could work.

                The biggest challenge at the time was that the Grendel, while outperforming the 7.62 at long range, was not very competiive inside about 400 meters. The larger cases solve that challenge.

                Nonetheless, my understanding is that a number of folks are still pushing the 6.5 Grendel and .264 USA in addition to the 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Absent a final decision, it is therefore fair to say that we do not know what the final cartridge mix will be.
                shootersnotes.com

                "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
                -- Author Unknown

                "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  Originally posted by JASmith View Post
                  I participated in those discussions and, yes, gradually came to understand that replacing the 5.56 with the Grendel would ultimately not work well, but that a 6.5 caliber medium machine gun could work.
                  I do remember being in many discussions about replacing 7.62 NATO with 6.5 Grendel. I just don't recall any threads about replacing 7.62 NATO with .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor.

                  Comment

                  • ah1whiskey
                    Warrior
                    • Sep 2015
                    • 255

                    its gonna be a tough sell whichever way they attempt to displace the 7.62x51 nato or 5.56.

                    now if the new "plastic' ammo can be made much cheaper then there might be progress.

                    its all about economy of scale.

                    Comment

                    • LRRPF52
                      Super Moderator
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 8569

                      Everything I'm seeing intends to keep 5.56 NATO as a staple for PDWs and lightweight, suppressed carbines with he SURG uppers that drop on to existing M4A1 lowers.

                      With the addition of 6.5mm SSRs and 6.5mm AMGs, you can task-organize and tailor the unit structure per mission requirements, the terrain, and collateral effects considerations.

                      Units in SOCOM have been using an Arms Room approach for a long time now already, where each Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine has had a variety of individual shoulder-fired weapons to choose from for the mission.

                      This includes:

                      MP5SD 9mm SMG

                      14.5" M4A1 SOPMOD upper
                      10.3" CQBR upper
                      Mk.12 Mod 0 and Mod 1 SPR (most uppers have been pulled from service)
                      SOPMOD Block II upper with 14.5" barrel, free float handguard
                      Unit-level built SOPMOD Block II upper with precision barrel for DM work

                      M203 40mm GL equipped upper
                      M320 40mm GL
                      M79 40mm GL

                      SR25 7.62 NATO SASS (Sniper Trained personnel)
                      Mk.14 EBR 7.62 NATO DMR (pulled from service, support discontinued)
                      M110 7.62 NATO SASS

                      Mk.16 SCAR-L 5.56 NATO with 13" and 16" barrels (support discontinued)
                      Mk.17 SCAR-H 7.62NATO with 13" and 16" barrels (support discontinued)

                      Mk.46 SAW 5.56 NATO belt-fed
                      Mk.48 7.62 NATO belt-fed

                      M240B 7.62 NATO GPMG
                      M240L 7.62 NATO LW GPMG

                      Mk.13 .300 Win Mag Sniper Rifle

                      M107 .50 BMG Semi-Auto Interdiction Rifle

                      Commanders and key leaders have the most influence in most units as to who will carry what for the mission. 5.56/M4 SOPMOD will continue to be the staple individual carbine, but not everybody carries M4s.
                      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                      www.AR15buildbox.com

                      Comment

                      • stanc
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 3430

                        And we're off...

                        U.S. Army weapon officials just opened a competition for a new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle...according to an Aug. 4 solicitation posted on FedBizOpps.gov.

                        "The Government has a requirement to acquire a commercial 7.62mm ICSR to field with the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) to engage and defeat protected and unprotected threats," the solicitation states.

                        The competition will consist of live-fire testing and evaluate the following:

                        Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
                        Compatible with Family of Weapon Sights - Individual and laser
                        Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
                        Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
                        Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
                        Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
                        20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          Originally posted by stanc View Post
                          U.S. Army weapon officials just opened a competition for a new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle...according to an Aug. 4 solicitation posted on FedBizOpps.gov.

                          "The Government has a requirement to acquire a commercial 7.62mm ICSR to field with the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) to engage and defeat protected and unprotected threats," the solicitation states.

                          The competition will consist of live-fire testing and evaluate the following:

                          Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
                          Compatible with Family of Weapon Sights - Individual and laser
                          Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
                          Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
                          Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
                          Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
                          20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load

                          http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...bat-rifle.html
                          I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

                          Full auto, huh?
                          20-30rd mags that support a 210rd combat load?

                          Somebody has obviously never tried to carry 7.62 NATO mags to that round count, and especially has never done it with plates.

                          Cue the SF unit that tried an all-7.62 NATO mix within their first few weeks on deployment, then stashed everything in their ASP and said, "Never again will we be that dumb. F that noise." These are guys with physical fitness and endurance levels that exceed the median in other combat arms units measurably, who frequently conduct movements that are 3-5x what a regular infantry unit will ever do, with heavier rucks, evasion plan contingencies in enemy territory that cover many map sheets and national borders even.

                          Someone needs to shoot all the 7.62 NATO out of the system and be done with that albatross cartridge once and for all.

                          The Army's Interim Combat Service Rifle should have either 16-inch or 20-inch barrels, a collapsible buttstock, an extended forward rail and weigh less than 12 pounds unloaded and without an optic, according to a May 31 Army request for information.
                          All weapons should include items such as a suppressor, cleaning, specialized tools and enough magazines to support the basic load of 210 rounds.
                          Milley told lawmakers in late May that the Army does not believe that every soldier needs a 7.62mm rifle. These weapons would be reserved for the Army's most rapid-deployable infantry units.

                          "We would probably want to field them with a better-grade weapon that can penetrate this body armor," Milley said.
                          Last edited by LRRPF52; 08-05-2017, 10:07 PM.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                          www.AR15buildbox.com

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                            I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
                            Yeah, I figured you'd like it.

                            Originally posted by LRRPF52
                            Full auto, huh?
                            20-30rd mags that support a 210rd combat load?
                            Looks like fun. Definitely needs more mag capacity than 20 rounds.


                            Comment

                            • n9nwo
                              Bloodstained
                              • Dec 2016
                              • 93

                              Originally posted by stanc View Post
                              U.S. Army weapon officials just opened a competition for a new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle...according to an Aug. 4 solicitation posted on FedBizOpps.gov.

                              "The Government has a requirement to acquire a commercial 7.62mm ICSR to field with the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round (EPR) to engage and defeat protected and unprotected threats," the solicitation states.

                              The competition will consist of live-fire testing and evaluate the following:

                              Dispersion (300m - function, 600m - simulation)
                              Compatible with Family of Weapon Sights - Individual and laser
                              Weapon length (folder or collapsed)/ Weight (empty/bare) / Velocity (300m and 600m calculated)
                              Semi-Automatic and Fully Automatic function testing (bursts and full auto)
                              Noise (at shooter's ear) / Flash suppression
                              Ambidextrous Controls (in darkness or adverse conditions) / Rail interface
                              20-30 round magazine to support a 210 round combat load

                              http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...bat-rifle.html
                              Is there any update on this? First we heard that the Army was looking at the 6.5 Creedmore then just going to 7.62x51 rifles. That the purchase would be 50,000 weapons. I would gather that would be combat units (BCT).

                              I could see why they would want a 7.62x51 rifle. There is ammo enough for it. It would reach out as well as higher penetration of buildings. Plus some of the rifles, if based on a SR25 or AR10 design, could be set up as an IAR platform to replace the SAW. This would solve the short term problems giving the military time to figure out what they really want.

                              Support personal would still have M4s and M249 along with the M240B/G

                              Comment

                              • stanc
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 3430

                                Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
                                Is there any update on this? First we heard that the Army was looking at the 6.5 Creedmore then just going to 7.62x51 rifles. That the purchase would be 50,000 weapons. I would gather that would be combat units (BCT).
                                I haven't seen any updates, yet.

                                Bid samples are due by 6 September, so maybe we'll hear something late this year, or early 2018.

                                The purchase is for "up to 50,000" so the actual buy could be less than that number.

                                My understanding is that the ICSR would go to select infantry units, probably first issue would be to units facing Russki troops.

                                Comment

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