Build list for a 18" grendel

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  • StoneHendge
    Chieftain
    • May 2016
    • 2009

    #16
    Originally posted by mateba View Post
    Those AR-Stoner barrels are probably comparable if they are not made by Liberty/Satern. The ones on midway now are 264LBC and I didn't see anything about their headspacing. 5/8" groups with factory ammo doesn't sound so bad though. Does it shoot under 1MOA at further ranges? It is a bummer that you are having trouble developing a handload. I am looking forward to that and would find it really discouraging if all my barrel would shoot was the first thing I put through
    I should say it shoots some factory ammo at 5/8" and it has hit 1000 yards in a 20 mph wind with factory Amax. But not all factory Amax (and presumably the new ELD stuff) since it has very significant lot to lot variation (which I learned the hard way at JP's 3 day Introductory PR Course when I mixed 2 cases of Amax that I had ordered at the same time but ended up being different lots). You really shouldn't need to zero and chrono every time you buy a 200 round case! (that's on Hornady - not the barrel)

    I think I've put close to 1000 rounds through it trying to find and confirm a load, but when I think I'm on to something, either the velocity isn't there, the ES is too high or accuracy doesn't hold. Maybe I've worn it out. Maybe it's mental at this point and I'm compensating for what i think is too much muzzle jump. But it is frustrating when it only took 150 rounds to find and confirm the following on a rifle I finished putting together 2 weeks ago (note that these shots were taken in between some ladders with my Satern barrel when I couldn't get a 5 shot group less than 1.5" running from 27.4 to 28.4 grains of 8208 XBR with 123 gr ELDs. Both rifles have an SSA-E). Regardless of all, you should look for the longest gas system possible for your given barrel length for both accuracy and recoil minimization.
    Attached Files
    Let's go Brandon!

    Comment

    • mateba
      Bloodstained
      • Mar 2017
      • 84

      #17
      Originally posted by 85_Ranger4x4 View Post
      One big problem I have with BHW is the .125 bolt face depth.

      I wish Faxon would get their stuff to market sometime soon too.
      This is also a recent change with JSE's wilson arms barrel. They were sami-6.5 type II barrels now they are something else. They still sell 18-24" HBAR & BBAR SS or QPQ 416r barrels for roughly $200, but with the .125 head spacing.

      Comment

      • Drillboss
        Warrior
        • Jan 2015
        • 894

        #18
        Originally posted by mateba View Post
        Klem,
        Yes, this build has a budget. And no, I'm not offended. Thank you for your time. I will probably buy a nicer trigger and a few other parts later on. I am willing to double my allotment for glass as more than a few of y'all noted $300 is just not enough. And I agree. I would really like to be able to buy products from the brands you listed one day. A gieselle trigger might be doable sooner than later, I know their stuff is awesome. And I'd like a nice safe trigger for hunting.

        My budget started at $875 from a rifle and ammo sale. Maybe I should have put an amount on everything and said that was a consideration. I'll update my original post. The parts list is approaching $830 w/o scope and mount. From the onset, I knew the rifle would cost close to that in parts alone. The mount and scope I chose will be another $625. I'll need to figure something out for that. The low mass stuff didn't cost too much more up front. I certainly could have saved $70 by buy cheap normal DI parts.
        I agree with Klem. You're going to get more return on investment by spending that extra $300 on the barrel than than on the optics. By return on investment, I mean satisfaction with your groups, or just "giggle factor". I've got a couple of $200 scopes on my rifles that shoot right back to point of aim every season. Granted, I can't dial them for 500 to 1000 yard target practice, but they put the bullets where they need to be within normal hunting ranges.

        Comment

        • mateba
          Bloodstained
          • Mar 2017
          • 84

          #19
          Originally posted by StoneHendge View Post
          I should say it shoots some factory ammo at 5/8" and it has hit 1000 yards in a 20 mph wind with factory Amax. But not all factory Amax (and presumably the new ELD stuff) since it has very significant lot to lot variation (which I learned the hard way at JP's 3 day Introductory PR Course when I mixed 2 cases of Amax that I had ordered at the same time but ended up being different lots). You really shouldn't need to zero and chrono every time you buy a 200 round case! (that's on Hornady - not the barrel)

          I think I've put close to 1000 rounds through it trying to find and confirm a load, but when I think I'm on to something, either the velocity isn't there, the ES is too high or accuracy doesn't hold. Maybe I've worn it out. Maybe it's mental at this point and I'm compensating for what i think is too much muzzle jump. But it is frustrating when it only took 150 rounds to find and confirm the following on a rifle I finished putting together 2 weeks ago (note that these shots were taken in between some ladders with my Satern barrel when I couldn't get a 5 shot group less than 1.5" running from 27.4 to 28.4 grains of 8208 XBR with 123 gr ELDs. Both rifles have an SSA-E). Regardless of all, you should look for the longest gas system possible for your given barrel length for both accuracy and recoil minimization.
          That's an awesome group! To bad they are not all like that. The brownell's barrel is a mid-length gas system. I looked for a 18" rifle length barrel but... I plan on using an adjustable gas block so I'm not worried about it. It would be nice to have the gas block closer to the muzzle for the reason of adjusting it under the handguard but I am not worried about its function. A mid-gas barrel should offer a healthy gas system to start backing down from. Are you using an adjustable gas block?

          Comment

          • StoneHendge
            Chieftain
            • May 2016
            • 2009

            #20
            Originally posted by mateba View Post
            That's an awesome group! To bad they are not all like that. The brownell's barrel is a mid-length gas system. I looked for a 18" rifle length barrel but... I plan on using an adjustable gas block so I'm not worried about it. It would be nice to have the gas block closer to the muzzle for the reason of adjusting it under the handguard but I am not worried about its function. A mid-gas barrel should offer a healthy gas system to start backing down from. Are you using an adjustable gas block?
            I'm using an SLR Sentry 7 clamp on at the first click that will reliably cycle. But the longer gas system helps with accuracy in addition to recoil mitigation. John Paul (i.e. JP) told me they had found this to be the case and are doing extended rifle length systems on their 22" 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels. Think of both the change in gas flow as the bullet passes the gas port and what might happen if the gas gets to the gas key while the bullet is still in the barrel. There are some Intermediate length 18"s out there which fall between rifle and mid length - I've looked at them but unfortunately I'm stuck with mid length since I have a monolithic upper and my gas block already sits in front of the handguard
            Let's go Brandon!

            Comment

            • A5BLASTER
              Chieftain
              • Mar 2015
              • 6192

              #21
              Sorry to derail the topic, Stonehenge what's wrong with a rifle length gas on your upper if the gas length you have now already puts the gas block past the end of the handguard?

              Comment

              • mateba
                Bloodstained
                • Mar 2017
                • 84

                #22
                Originally posted by StoneHendge View Post
                I'm using an SLR Sentry 7 clamp on at the first click that will reliably cycle. But the longer gas system helps with accuracy in addition to recoil mitigation. John Paul (i.e. JP) told me they had found this to be the case and are doing extended rifle length systems on their 22" 260 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels. Think of both the change in gas flow as the bullet passes the gas port and what might happen if the gas gets to the gas key while the bullet is still in the barrel. There are some Intermediate length 18"s out there which fall between rifle and mid length - I've looked at them but unfortunately I'm stuck with mid length since I have a monolithic upper and my gas block already sits in front of the handguard
                That is a good point. Especially since I'm chasing a little velocity bump. As soon as the bullet passes the gas port the path of least resistance is at 9" down the barrel versus 12" on a rifle length gas system. I would be better off having to open up a rifle length gas port than use a mid length, assuming all other things are equal. How do you like your Syrac? I wonder who else will back a barrel like Brownell's? I'm willing to bet AA will. Anyone else come to mind?

                Comment

                • StoneHendge
                  Chieftain
                  • May 2016
                  • 2009

                  #23
                  Originally posted by mateba View Post
                  That is a good point. Especially since I'm chasing a little velocity bump. As soon as the bullet passes the gas port the path of least resistance is at 9" down the barrel versus 12" on a rifle length gas system. I would be better off having to open up a rifle length gas port than use a mid length, assuming all other things are equal. How do you like your Syrac? I wonder who else will back a barrel like Brownell's? I'm willing to bet AA will. Anyone else come to mind?
                  The tunable gas block that came with my Odin 22 Nosler barrel fit a little loose and it was around 0.002" out of spec and the rifle wasn't cycling properly due to leakage. I sent them a video of me moving it around on the barrel on a Sunday, called them on Monday morning and had a return label in my inbox and a tracking number for my replacement clamp on adjustable (which I paid around $60 for to upgrade) in a couple of hours. The only other company in the industry that has rectified a problem that fast for me was Geissele - who I'm sure was very motivated to get a trigger that randomly double tapped out of the public domain as quickly as possible! (Unfortunately, the double tap was completely random - otherwise it would be in my safe to make rare guest appearances deep off the grid) Odin does an MOA guarantee but I have no idea what it would take to call them on it.

                  The Syrac block is fine - does what it is supposed to do. I find installing and messing with gas blocks to be about as much fun as trimming brass, so it's hard for me to get terribly excited.
                  Let's go Brandon!

                  Comment

                  • mateba
                    Bloodstained
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 84

                    #24
                    LOL, too bad it was random. A lot of people like their Syrac adjustable gas block.

                    Comment

                    • StoneHendge
                      Chieftain
                      • May 2016
                      • 2009

                      #25
                      Originally posted by A5BLASTER View Post
                      Sorry to derail the topic, Stonehenge what's wrong with a rifle length gas on your upper if the gas length you have now already puts the gas block past the end of the handguard?
                      The gas block sits in front of the handguard M-16 style so the gas tube is fully protected. Any farther and the gas tube would be exposed.
                      Attached Files
                      Let's go Brandon!

                      Comment

                      • LRRPF52
                        Super Moderator
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8569

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Klem View Post
                        Does Satern sell barrels via Brownells?

                        Your listed muzzle device is a flash hider and weighs 3.7oz. You mention wanting to save an ounce in your handguard so why not just screw on a thread protector and save yourself $100?
                        They are button-rifled Liberty barrels, which is the button brand associated with Satern, not Steve's cut-rifled pipes that you wait for.

                        Some Brownell's/Liberty pipes have been good, others not so much. Some of the most accurate 6.5 Grendels I have ever shot were built with Satern cut-rifled barrels, chambered by AA back in the day.

                        The one I Cerakoted with a Snakeskin pattern was recently featured when a guy let his wife use it for some long range event. She had no LR experience behind a rifle to my knowledge.

                        She shot a 4.5" 5rd group at 950yds with the rifle, using Hornady 123gr ELD-M I think. Guys who have been shooting LR for decades were packing up their rifles and not wanting to shoot after that.
                        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                        www.AR15buildbox.com

                        Comment

                        • danm
                          Warrior
                          • Aug 2014
                          • 498

                          #27
                          Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                          They are button-rifled Liberty barrels, which is the button brand associated with Satern, not Steve's cut-rifled pipes that you wait for.

                          Some Brownell's/Liberty pipes have been good, others not so much. Some of the most accurate 6.5 Grendels I have ever shot were built with Satern cut-rifled barrels, chambered by AA back in the day.

                          The one I Cerakoted with a Snakeskin pattern was recently featured when a guy let his wife use it for some long range event. She had no LR experience behind a rifle to my knowledge.

                          She shot a 4.5" 5rd group at 950yds with the rifle, using Hornady 123gr ELD-M I think. Guys who have been shooting LR for decades were packing up their rifles and not wanting to shoot after that.

                          Oh man that's funny... and humiliating...

                          Comment

                          • Chrazy-Chris
                            Warrior
                            • Aug 2015
                            • 169

                            #28
                            Looks like you're trying to save weight. I recently swapped out my flash hider with a thread protector on my 20" fluted Grendel which I use for the same purpose as you (hunting and target shooting) and although it only saved me a few ounces, it is a very noticeable few ounces. I find that the Grendel is such a mild round, a muzzle device doesn't really do much for it in terms of brakes or flash hiders. Shortening the overall length also made it feel much more maneuverable (not to mention it fits the looks of my hunting-themed build).

                            While I was at it, I went ahead and ordered an Aero ultralight mount to swap out my ADM mount. I'm thinking this will also help the rifle feel more "streamlined" (less snaggy) and of course lighter. The Aero is a much cheaper option as well. Initially I ordered Aero's SPR but didn't end up needing all that eye relief with my setup so I swapped it our for Aero's standard mount which, by design, looks like it'll be a bit more solid despite its light weight. I learned that the weight of components such as scope mounts and muzzle devices really add up. Hope my lessons-learned help!

                            EDIT - I just went back and re-read your parts list. I'd take a second look at whether you need the SPR or the Standard Aero mount. As I mentioned above I didn't need all that extra eye relief that the SPR mount gives so I went with a sturdier-looking design (and likely a hair lighter) in their standard mount. This was with a Vortex Viper 4-16x so I'll bet you'll be fine with the standard mount using your Vortex 10x. I also see you plan on buying flip-up sights... why? You aren't going to be able to remove your scope without the use of tools. Might as well save yourself some money and some weight and skip the BUIS.
                            Last edited by Chrazy-Chris; 04-25-2017, 06:09 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Chrazy-Chris
                              Warrior
                              • Aug 2015
                              • 169

                              #29
                              Mateba,

                              So I bought a Wilson barrel from JSE in Nov 16 and now I'm just not sure which bolt it's supposed to take. Do you have any info on when they made the switch? I contacted JSE and they said it takes .125 but I'm just not sure whether they're taking into account that I purchased the barrel 5 months ago and things may have changed. I can't find any contact info for Wilson. Any help you can provide would be MUCH appreciated!

                              Originally posted by mateba View Post
                              This is also a recent change with JSE's wilson arms barrel. They were sami-6.5 type II barrels now they are something else. They still sell 18-24" HBAR & BBAR SS or QPQ 416r barrels for roughly $200, but with the .125 head spacing.

                              Comment

                              • mateba
                                Bloodstained
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 84

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Chrazy-Chris View Post
                                Looks like you're trying to save weight. I recently swapped out my flash hider with a thread protector on my 20" fluted Grendel which I use for the same purpose as you (hunting and target shooting) and although it only saved me a few ounces, it is a very noticeable few ounces. I find that the Grendel is such a mild round, a muzzle device doesn't really do much for it in terms of brakes or flash hiders. Shortening the overall length also made it feel much more maneuverable (not to mention it fits the looks of my hunting-themed build).

                                While I was at it, I went ahead and ordered an Aero ultralight mount to swap out my ADM mount. I'm thinking this will also help the rifle feel more "streamlined" (less snaggy) and of course lighter. The Aero is a much cheaper option as well. Initially I ordered Aero's SPR but didn't end up needing all that eye relief with my setup so I swapped it our for Aero's standard mount which, by design, looks like it'll be a bit more solid despite its light weight. I learned that the weight of components such as scope mounts and muzzle devices really add up. Hope my lessons-learned help!

                                EDIT - I just went back and re-read your parts list. I'd take a second look at whether you need the SPR or the Standard Aero mount. As I mentioned above I didn't need all that extra eye relief that the SPR mount gives so I went with a sturdier-looking design (and likely a hair lighter) in their standard mount. This was with a Vortex Viper 4-16x so I'll bet you'll be fine with the standard mount using your Vortex 10x. I also see you plan on buying flip-up sights... why? You aren't going to be able to remove your scope without the use of tools. Might as well save yourself some money and some weight and skip the BUIS.
                                Yes, I am concerned with weight. My build is about half complete and weighing 71oz. I think it will weight be close to 144oz, ~9lbs, finished with scope and a loaded 24 round magazine. Basically, 9 lbs while in use. But we will see, each part has actually weighted less then their advertised amount. It might finish at 8-3/4#. The BUIS are only a couple of ounces and where very inexpensive. I'm not sure if I trust them. I don't have them yet. I may leave them off. One of the nice things about a scope is its redundancy. It doesn't matter nearly as much if the battery dies. But I do want to have irons laying around. I like rifles to come with sights. That's a pet peeve of mine, so I indulged myself. I've been curious about the SPR mount. I think it will sturdy but I wondered the same thing. I take another look, thanks.

                                Originally posted by Chrazy-Chris View Post
                                Mateba,

                                So I bought a Wilson barrel from JSE in Nov 16 and now I'm just not sure which bolt it's supposed to take. Do you have any info on when they made the switch? I contacted JSE and they said it takes .125 but I'm just not sure whether they're taking into account that I purchased the barrel 5 months ago and things may have changed. I can't find any contact info for Wilson. Any help you can provide would be MUCH appreciated!
                                You should verify your head spacing with a gauge to be sure. But, if I had to bet, you probably have a .136 type II barrel. I had been keeping an eye on them for a while and was really disappointed with their recent decision. Trying to contacting Wilson Arms is about as fun has trying to contact Satern. I think JSE moved locations and they decided to make the change after they got settled. You might check you order history on their website to see if their is any info on the product you bought. Please review your barrel when you get a chance.

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