What is your Elk setup

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  • carlhwv
    Bloodstained
    • May 2017
    • 52

    What is your Elk setup

    Over the past 37 years I've been lucky enough to take 15 Rocky Mountain Elk. Until 4 years ago I was a straight bolt action guy, but after laying waste to my scope after a fall during a hunt in Montana, I've gone AR. This year I'm moving to 6.5mm and until a few weeks ago figured it would be an upper swap on a proven LaRue lower.

    This still might be the case, but I always take two long guns. This year they are both going to be 6.5's and the thought of shaving a few pounds off the pack is getting appealing as I age. I enjoy going high in the snow and want to keep it up as long as possible.Goimg from sea level to 9000 feet isn't getting any easier.

    I'm also of the camp that like to put on move, getting in as tight as I can for my shots. I've had my share of long ones, and while my worse miss was at 121 broadside, the odds, for me anyway, go up when I'm under 300.

    I'd like to hear from people who have taken an Elk with their Grendel....as much as you want to share, but most importantly your load.

    I've gravitated to the Barnes sx monolithics, but with so many options before I commit to workimg up the 100 and 120 grain loads to see what I come up with, I'd like to see what others have had success with....and maybe more importantly what has failed.

    So let's have it.....tell us about your Grendel Elk...the good, the bad, and even the ugly.
    Carl
    NRA Patron Member, frequent supporter of the ILA, when knives are on offer
    Living free and willing to lay it down to keep it that way......
    Eternally grateful to my brothers and sisters that did and to those who strap it on each day so that we may enjoy life the way we do
  • carlhwv
    Bloodstained
    • May 2017
    • 52

    #2
    When one answers their own question, it is usually a bad one. But without any replies and field experience I figure I'll share my thoughts and see it there is traction.

    I'm a hunter, not a paper or steel shooter. I've had good experience with Barnes tsx and ttsx in the field. When I first showed up to elk camp with a 130gr load, everyone lifted their eyes. Over time it proved out to be a solid performer, with no lost game.

    For this caliber there are three options....two in 120gr and one 100gr. When I look at the data, the 100gr looks, on paper, to be the best choice. The extra 400-450fps translate into more energy pretty much across the board and more terminal velocity leading to better expansion on impact.

    I know these pills hold up well on bone impact. Add that to the the published ability for rapid follow shots and I've got to believe they will work well at or under 300yds. It is where I'm going to start.

    If anyone has something else to share I'd love to hear.
    Carl
    NRA Patron Member, frequent supporter of the ILA, when knives are on offer
    Living free and willing to lay it down to keep it that way......
    Eternally grateful to my brothers and sisters that did and to those who strap it on each day so that we may enjoy life the way we do

    Comment

    • VASCAR2
      Chieftain
      • Mar 2011
      • 6219

      #3
      You didn't mention what barrel length you plan on using with a 6.5 Grendel. I've read Barnes recommends a minimum of 1800 FPS to get expansion with TTSX or TSX. A longer barrel of 20"-24" will give adequate velocity with 120 grain bullets. If your using a 16"-18" 6.5 Grendel you might consider the 100 grain TTSX because of the higher velocity. Since your probably going to be hunting in colder weather I would try to develope a load using AR Comp or IMR8208XBR. Ball powders like CFE223 or Accurate 2520 tend to loose velocity more in cold weather and build more pressure in hot weather.

      I'd chronograph my loads and use the ballistic apps to try and determine if my load provided adequate velocity at the elevation and max range where I would be comfortable taking a shot.

      Comment

      • LRRPF52
        Super Moderator
        • Sep 2014
        • 8569

        #4
        These guys were within very close range on a cow. DRT




        This guy's wife used a 125gr Nosler Partition:



        This forum member used a 120gr TTSX at 2600fps from a 24" barrel:

        I filled my cow elk tag today with the Grendel. She was 204 yards facing me. I shot her at the base of the neck/chest. I used the Barnes 120ttsx's with 30 grains of 2520. What a great way to start the year off!:)





        Mark LaRue used 120gr TSX at 407yds from a 20" barrel:


        This forum member's 16yr-old daughter used a 123gr SST from a 16" barrel, DRT:




        I know everybody gets tired of hearing it, but shot placement through the vitals is what kills elk quickly. The higher the impact speed, the faster the kill seems to happen, so closer shots will provide more impact speed.

        I think your conclusions about the 100gr TTSX are sound. The solids hold up really well to hitting bone, and follow their intended path well even from quartering shots. They perform more like a cup and core bullet 1.4-1.5x their weight, at the same impact speed, since they don't shed weight usually.

        I think your success is more based on how much time you can spend marrying your rifle, no matter what you shoot. Since 6.5 Grendel has such low recoil, low cost for ammo with bullets that have the energy to make it through the vitals, and allows you to see immediately where you hit when either training or hunting, it gives you more confidence in making the shot.

        I know right now that if I pull my Lilja 318 Grendel out of the case, I will make my hits 1st-round within 10" at least out to 400yds even in full value 10mph winds, because I've spent the last 2-3 years mainly training with that rifle almost exclusively. Even if you ice-picked an elk through the heart for some reason, it's going to expend its blood volume rapidly, and expire, especially if you let them bleed out and don't spook them after the first shot.

        I see a lot of people who don't get immediate effects start questioning if they even hit the elk, when the elk just doesn't know that it is bleeding out. If they just let them bleed out, they go down. Many feel a need to keep shooting them over and over, often spooking them over a spur or ridge into unseen territory, where they now need to be tracked.

        This is more common with larger calibers and magnum cartridges than with lighter recoiling cartridges, because the recoil breaks their hasty field position in a more pronounced manner, resulting in them not seeing what happened, and if they don't have a competent, experienced spotter, they may get bad advice with continued follow-up shots that aren't necessary.

        A lot of them will just bed down after thinking, "What just happened? I think I felt something. I'm tired." If you shoot them at that point again, then you now took them from a state of alertness, to a state of impending danger they usually respond to with bolting off over a terrain feature to create distance between where they now know the threat is.

        As to caliber selection, it really comes down to how far you plan to ethically take the shot. If you train regularly with whatever rifle you own, with a solid build between the fire stick, optics, mount, and ammunition combo, look at where your chosen projectile expands to in the conditions you will be shooting, and can make shots at that distance or within inside of an elk's vital zone (most are ~14"), then you're in a much better position.

        If this is a one-time-a-year thing, where you only have allowed time to confirm zero and then go out for the hunt, I would keep it inside of 200yds and have a good 200yd zero confirmed.

        I personally like being able to carry such a lightweight rifle up above 8000 feet where we generally see elk here in Utah, and in season in CO. In CO and Idaho, elk are like rats running everywhere. We just saw tons of them up in Northern ID on the way to Boomershoot 2 weeks ago, beautiful animals. In CO, people think they are domesticated and walk up to them at some of the prominent gathering holes, where you couldn't count them.

        In season, they are on the run, using every available piece of terrain for cover and concealment, dashing over spurs and hills, running in herds through tree lines, and hiding out away from where they know hunters are set up.

        I grew up using .270 Winchester with factory box ammo, not knowing anything about ballistics other than muzzle velocity and bullet weight, because we didn't have any of these modern calculators, BC data, weather stations, or even good optics like now. Times have changed a lot in those areas. One thing has never changed though...

        Marrying your rifle/optic/mount/ammo system
        Last edited by LRRPF52; 06-12-2017, 04:38 PM.
        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

        www.AR15buildbox.com

        Comment

        • VASCAR2
          Chieftain
          • Mar 2011
          • 6219

          #5
          I looked up the BC for the Barnes 100 grain TTSX .359 @ 2575 FPS which should be fairly close for velocity of a 16" 6.5 Grendel. Using Hornady Ballistic calculator set for 8000' ASL I got the following data.

          300 yards 1897 FPS 799 ft lbs of energy
          325 yards 1846 FPS 757 ft lbs of energy
          350 yards 1796 FPS 716 ft lbs of energy

          With a Barnes 120 grain TTSX with BC of .412 at 2500 FPS ( velocity of 20" barrel) at 8000' ASL I get the following data.

          300 yards 1913 FPS 975 ft lbs of energy
          325 yards 1864 FPS 930 ft lbs of energy
          350 yards 1824 FPS 887 ft lbs of energy
          375 yards 1781 FPS 845 ft lbs of energy.

          The Nosler 129 grain ABLR (Accu Bond Long Range) which expands down to 1300 FPS might also be worth considering. The 6.5 129 grain ABLR has a G1 BC of .561 and you can probably get 2400 FPS out of a 20" 6.5 Grendel and about 2300 FPS out of a 16" 6.5 Grendel.
          Last edited by VASCAR2; 05-04-2017, 09:44 PM.

          Comment

          • Mac7
            Bloodstained
            • Feb 2017
            • 42

            #6
            Tagging this thread. Also looking at ideas for elk. Have thought about the Accubond. Hoping my daughter gets a cow tag this year.

            Comment

            • carlhwv
              Bloodstained
              • May 2017
              • 52

              #7
              I appreciated the feedback guys. I'll add the 129gr Nosler to the mix. With that kind of BC, and expansion to 1300 fps, I see the appeal.

              We work hard to get our shots under 300. Unless it is perfect, I pass at anything over. I'm lucky to hunt on a nice spread of private land in MT boarding Nat'l Forest and over the year really know the ground. As my age increases weight is becoming my nemesis. For the reasons noted, I want to get my build done in the next couple weeks so I can start working with it. I'm going to need .75 MOA and terminal velocity of 1800 fps to feel comfortable where we hunt with the TTSX.

              Nice looking piece. I'm looking to put together a light weight hunter. Is the load you are currently working up going to be your hunting load? While I love the idea of marrying a 7.5 pound 16" rifle, if it make sense I'll go with a 20". I'm entering into unknown territory when it comes to the weight difference between the two. I Gus's I could sell the Weatherby and have enough dough for both.....

              I know it doesn't sound like much, but an extra pound postholing through knee deep snow at 7000-9000 feet, after living at sea level all year feels more like 10 pounds. Still, I want to get it right and having something that I can shoot across the ridge, 350 yards, when the wind isn't blowing more than 10 would make it worth it. Year when there isn't snow are usually cow tag years for us, so we always hope for snow, but still enjoy ourselves if we don't get it.

              The point about being shot and not knowing it is a great analogy, as this is what happens more times than not when I hunt whitetail in my backyard hear on the mountain in MD. When I hit them good they usually don't take 10 steps before falling over. I can see the appeal to a small caliber hit in the breadbasket.
              Carl
              NRA Patron Member, frequent supporter of the ILA, when knives are on offer
              Living free and willing to lay it down to keep it that way......
              Eternally grateful to my brothers and sisters that did and to those who strap it on each day so that we may enjoy life the way we do

              Comment

              • Bigs28
                Chieftain
                • Feb 2016
                • 1786

                #8
                I personally don't see the advantage of going from a 16" to a 20" for shots under 300 yards at over 9k elevation but maybe someone way smarter then me does.

                Comment

                • kmon
                  Chieftain
                  • Feb 2015
                  • 2095

                  #9
                  Some good advice above, LRRPF52 gave very good advice on shooting elk. The elk I have taken and watched being shot have all been with bigger cartridges but one thing is common throughout hit the elk in the vitals with that first shot with a double lung or heart shot and they succumb pretty quickly without running off very far. Hit one wrong with that first shot and you have a good chance of difficult or no recovery.

                  This youtube video of a young lady getting her bull is a good example, that first shot was right on the money and the elk was dead, he just didn't know it yet nor did the hunters. Good shooting by the young huntress though.

                  Comment

                  • LRRPF52
                    Super Moderator
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8569

                    #10
                    Here's an example of a front leg POI with a 300 RUM on a smaller cow elk, with results that could have been very bad without the 2nd shot:



                    Notice how she flinches in the slow-motion at 3:47. You think a large 300 Magnum class cartridge just might make a young shooter flinch?

                    They would have been much better served with a 6.5 Creedmoor for any shooter in that party, shooting those ranges across large spurs here in the mountains.

                    Here's an example of another youth shooter making a shot at 480 yards with a 300 RUM and a 230gr Berger. Notice that in this group, there are some obvious long range shooting skills being used WRT range determination, ballistics calculation, shooter spotter dialog, and others spotting for her. She still makes a leg shot that goes through the vitals, fortunately, but a 6.5 Creedmoor or .260 Rem would have been plenty for her, especially with a 120gr GMX. She would have seen her own impact with that set-up.

                    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                    www.AR15buildbox.com

                    Comment

                    • carlhwv
                      Bloodstained
                      • May 2017
                      • 52

                      #11
                      My I'm pretty much all in. The 270 Wby is going up for sale.....nothing fancy, but good shooter for what it is....but I haven't used it since 2012. Just got shipping noice that my 260 Rem platform is on its way. With the shorter 308 barrel currently installed, shipping weight is 10 pounds, so I'm guessing it will come a little over with the optic and loaded mag. This will be my 6.5 Heavy.

                      For my 6.5 Lite I'm going to use what I had budgeted for the entire upper and put into the barrel. The upper I'm tearing down is a Noveske billet receiver with a 13.5 NSR keymod handguard, and a BMC gunfighter charging Handel. I didn't build it, so I'm not sure the about the BCG. The barrel is a Lothar 16".

                      While I have put together 3 lowers, with will be the first upper I have done, so I welcome comments and thoughts...and I've got a few questions. I've decided to get my barrel from Precision Firearms, first for their reputation, and second they are 35 miles away.

                      After looking at the ballistics charts, I've decided to go with a 20" barrel. Looking at weights, before fluting, there looks to be a 7 ounce difference between the 16" and 20". It looks like I should get 100fps extra out of the muzzle and if so, for the bullets I'm leaning toward....the Barnes sx's....will appreciate it.

                      Here is where the questions begin. first, wile the barrel comes with a matched bolt, it's an extra 130 for the carrier, extractor, and firing pin. While I *think* some if not all could be salvaged from my current setup, for the extra money having it all put together and fitted is worth it, plus I don't know anothing about the bcg I have now other than it works well in its current setup.

                      I'm also leaning toward getting a new gas block. I don't know much about blocks. Should I go with clamp on or set screw? Adjustable?

                      On to flutes. Not sure how much weight they will take down. Is it more cosmetic than functional? It must change the harmonics, does it change accuracy? What about muzzle break? Yeah or nay for a hunting gun' is it worth the extra 2" and a couple hundred dollars between threads and break?

                      Finally, and most important, Precision has both Krieger and Lilja in the same step down 720 muzzle profile barrels. The cost is within 50 bucks. I've seen comments on the Lilja's but not the Krieger's and both weigh the same 2.45 pounds for 20". Given I'm spending around $1000 or a little more depending if I go fluted, I only want to do this once.

                      Based on what I'm seeing I still should be able to hit the 8 pound mark, with a liht optic and short mag, and I'm guessing if I can get a load I'm comfortable with, this will be my got to hunting rifle and the Heavy will become the backup.

                      Thanks again in advance.
                      Carl
                      NRA Patron Member, frequent supporter of the ILA, when knives are on offer
                      Living free and willing to lay it down to keep it that way......
                      Eternally grateful to my brothers and sisters that did and to those who strap it on each day so that we may enjoy life the way we do

                      Comment

                      • LRRPF52
                        Super Moderator
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8569

                        #12
                        You don't need a whole new BCG, just a new bolt with the barrel. Bolt drops right into a standard AR15 carrier, although I really like the nitrided carriers from PF, and that's what I have in my Lilja 318 build, a PF BCG.

                        For a 20" barrel, I would consider doing the hexagonal or dimple cuts for weight, not fluting. You will retain the inherent rigidity of the barrel profile, while dropping weight.

                        Krieger's tend to have harder steel and are world-renowned for accuracy, with cut-rifling, whereas Liljas are button-rifled, but still one of the top bench rest barrels on the market. Both will exceed your requirements for a common range hunting rifle.

                        Another thing you can do to keep the weight down is use a carbon fiber handguard, or one of the slim aluminum tubes as well from Midwest Industries, Manticore, or just use your Noveske NSR. That's a great handguard.

                        For muzzle brakes and hunting, you really need ear pro in before making the shot, so I prefer flash hiders, suppressors, or forward blast devices. A 20" RLGS Grendel has such little recoil, that you don't need compensation, although it will make a rifle where the reticle doesn't move much at all off the animal when you break the shot.

                        With gas blocks, I prefer them to press fit onto the journal, pin, or clamp-on. I bed them so that there is no room for them to wobble, create gas leakage with expansion differentials, and the ports need to be aligned.

                        I have built 20" Grendels that were 6lb guns before optics, using the Lilja Wasp profile barrel and AP Customs carbon fiber handguards.

                        Ballistics
                        A 20" will give you 2500-2550fps speeds with 120-123gr bullets. 100gr TTSX will go to 2765fps with H335. I suspect CFE could get a 100gr TTSX to 2800fps.

                        A 129gr ABLR will go to 2465fps with CFE223 or LVR.

                        A 20" increases your effective range a little over 16" and 18" guns, but this is outside your intended range anyway. I think 300yds is reasonable for shooting larger elk, as your cut-off, even though it has been done farther with a 20". That was the cutoff I set for myself 2 years ago, with a 95gr GMX going 2800fps from an 18" barrel.

                        Since you will be going from sea level to 8000ft and 9000ft elevations, if you get an adjustable gas block and tune it for sea level, you will probably short-stroke in the cold during hunting season. I would use the normal 20" RLGS .094" gas port and keep it gassed well with one of the slower burning powders like CFE223 or LVR, or consider using AR Comp or 8208XBR with a solid load. You will have less temp sensitivity with the extruded powders.
                        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                        www.AR15buildbox.com

                        Comment

                        • carlhwv
                          Bloodstained
                          • May 2017
                          • 52

                          #13
                          Am I over thinking this or not thinking about the right things?
                          Last edited by carlhwv; 05-06-2017, 06:22 PM.
                          Carl
                          NRA Patron Member, frequent supporter of the ILA, when knives are on offer
                          Living free and willing to lay it down to keep it that way......
                          Eternally grateful to my brothers and sisters that did and to those who strap it on each day so that we may enjoy life the way we do

                          Comment

                          • chaps
                            Unwashed
                            • May 2017
                            • 15

                            #14
                            I'm just tagging in to follow this thread - there is a lot of stuff in here that'd go well in a Sticky.
                            S/F, Chaps

                            Comment

                            • grayfox
                              Chieftain
                              • Jan 2017
                              • 4295

                              #15
                              Also tagged. I may leave my creed at home and take 2 Grendels...
                              "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

                              Comment

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