Grendel dies-my head is spinning!

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  • Grendelshooter
    Warrior
    • Jun 2017
    • 214

    #31
    Ok bringing this back up.

    In the next few days I'll be buying a Forster co-ax, Forster micrometer and full length sizing dies. In addition I'll be grabbing the RCBS chargmaster combo.
    I've got a pound each of cfe223 and 8208. 500 123 SMK, 250 123 nosler CC, and 200 123 AMAX.
    CCI #41 and Lapua brass are ready to go.

    One thing I don't understand is bumping the shoulder back. Is this something I'll need to do in addition to full length sizing or will the sizing die take care of it? Do I need to adjust the die to do this? I know what it is, but not if I'll need to do it.

    Comment

    • NugginFutz
      Chieftain
      • Aug 2013
      • 2622

      #32
      Bumping is most definitely something needed. If you don't, you won't be able to close the bolt or get the bolt fully into battery. Bumping reforms the case to take care of case wall stretch which occurs during firing and extraction.

      A setback of .003" is what is typically recommended.

      If your die is properly adjusted to the manufacturers spec, you should be close.
      Last edited by NugginFutz; 07-20-2017, 01:18 AM.
      If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

      Comment

      • Grendelshooter
        Warrior
        • Jun 2017
        • 214

        #33
        So is the Redding die adjustable in that regard?

        Comment

        • StoneHendge
          Chieftain
          • May 2016
          • 2009

          #34
          It's basically how far you twist down the sizing die after it's kissing the shell holder. You won't need to bump the neck with the virgin brass - just size it where the die kisses the shell holder for the first loading.

          I would highly recommend getting one of these:



          It allows you to measure your fired case which gives you your chamber dimensions. The distance from the base of your shoulder to the case head will be greater than SAAMI spec. You then want to bump down 0.003 from there (you measure the sized case again in the gauge). It will also save you from potentially unnecessarily trimming brass
          Let's go Brandon!

          Comment

          • NugginFutz
            Chieftain
            • Aug 2013
            • 2622

            #35
            I personally believe the Wilson Case Gauge is useful only to quickly see if trimming is needed or if a case exceeds min/max lengths. Beyond that, I prefer to size to my rifle's actual chamber dimensions.



            Instead, I would use a comparator tool to measure off the datum line of my fired cases. I then adjust the sizing die to setback the shoulder about .003". This measurement is relative to the chamber which produced the fired case and, therefore, bumps the shoulders only what is needed for the case to chamber safely and reliably.
            If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

            Comment

            • StoneHendge
              Chieftain
              • May 2016
              • 2009

              #36
              Originally posted by NugginFutz View Post
              I personally believe the Wilson Case Gauge is useful only to quickly see if trimming is needed or if a case exceeds min/max lengths. Beyond that, I prefer to size to my rifle's actual chamber dimensions.



              Instead, I would use a comparator tool to measure off the datum line of my fired cases. I then adjust the sizing die to setback the shoulder about .003". This measurement is relative to the chamber which produced the fired case and, therefore, bumps the shoulders only what is needed for the case to chamber safely and reliably.
              The Wilson Case Gauge does the same thing - just drop it in, measure from the neck side of the gauge to the head and bump down. I find it more reliable than the Hornady comparator since you don't need to worry about alignment.
              Let's go Brandon!

              Comment

              • NugginFutz
                Chieftain
                • Aug 2013
                • 2622

                #37
                Originally posted by StoneHendge View Post
                The Wilson Case Gauge does the same thing - just drop it in, measure from the neck side of the gauge to the head and bump down. I find it more reliable than the Hornady comparator since you don't need to worry about alignment.
                Stonehenge,

                Funny you mention that, because I feel the same way about the Comparator. Spanning the Wilson case gauge with a set of calipers and trying to get consistent readings proved challenging for me (especially with the case neck protruding even a little above the low step). Even measuring with the protrusion end of the caliper was tried with inconsistent results. The comparator, on the other hand, was straightforward and very repeatable for me. The added benefit to the comparator set was that it is useful for multiple cartridges without the need of a specific gauge for each chamber.

                Whichever method chosen, the agreed upon point is that cases tend to stretch when fired, and resizing must account for that by setting the shoulders back just far enough to allow proper chambering.
                Last edited by NugginFutz; 07-20-2017, 01:21 AM.
                If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                Comment

                • bj139
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 1968

                  #38
                  Here is a discussion that fits in nicely with this thread.
                  Has anyone modified a Lee collet die to work with 6.5 Grendel?


                  BTW, I partially resized with a full length Lee die my last handloaded 85g Sierras and got a 0.5 MOA three shot group from my Overwatch upper and a 0.905 MOA five shot from my 16" BCA barrel. The rounds chambered and fired in both barrels fine. I realize the chambers may be the same size. Unscrewing the die a half turn and sizing is a standard technique to NOT bump the shoulder back to achieve a better fit in the chamber. There may be problems with the rounds fitting, now or in the future.
                  Last edited by bj139; 07-28-2017, 04:37 PM.

                  Comment

                  • bj139
                    Chieftain
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 1968

                    #39
                    Here is a short video about the bushing die.


                    And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSNPY3zXfo

                    I wish there was more information like this on 65grendel.com but if there is, I haven't found it.

                    How does the bushing self center? Is there a conical taper at the inside top of the die and a conical taper at the top of the bushing? If not, I can't see how it achieves concentricity of the neck with the case body.
                    Last edited by bj139; 07-28-2017, 04:40 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Mad Charlie
                      Warrior
                      • May 2017
                      • 827

                      #40
                      Originally posted by bj139 View Post
                      Here is a short video about the bushing die.


                      And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpSNPY3zXfo

                      I wish there was more information like this on 65grendel.com but if there is, I haven't found it.

                      How does the bushing self center? Is there a conical taper at the inside top of the die and a conical taper at the top of the bushing? If not, I can't see how it achieves concentricity of the neck with the case body.
                      Most times they are not very concentric for me, where bushing type dies seem to shine is when necks are turned.
                      I'm not turning necks for a semi-auto. Mandrel type expanders have given me the least runout, measured at the bullet.

                      I'm new at loading for the Grendel, but I have loaded a lot of precision rifle ammo over the last 40 odd years.

                      Some folks have great luck with the bushing dies, I'm just not one of them.

                      Comment

                      • FW Conch
                        Warrior
                        • Nov 2014
                        • 289

                        #41
                        I'm glad to hear that LEE will make a collet/neck sizing die for the 6.5 Grendel.

                        I will pursue that option :-))

                        Comment

                        • bj139
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 1968

                          #42
                          I didn't hear that LEE will make collet size die for the Grendel. Do you have any references to this?

                          Here is a good video on partial resizing.

                          I would not do this with hot loads in a semiauto and if with reduced pressure loads maybe full length resize every few reloads.

                          Comment

                          • joedirt199
                            Warrior
                            • Jul 2015
                            • 121

                            #43
                            I contacted lee about the collet die to see if I could get just the neck sizer but they said it has to be sold as a pair, sizer and seater, for $70. They could send me just the neck sizer but the price would still be $70.

                            Comment

                            • Mad Charlie
                              Warrior
                              • May 2017
                              • 827

                              #44
                              That figures...

                              Comment

                              • The Profit Joseph Sith
                                Warrior
                                • Nov 2016
                                • 596

                                #45
                                Originally posted by StoneHendge View Post
                                Lol - this joint can be hazardous to your bank account! If your eyes are getting like mine, you'll appreciate the size of the Forster micrometer - that's a Redding Premium Micrometer on the left and a Forster Ultra Micrometer on the right. You can see the Forster alignment sleeve sticking out.

                                If you go the Forster die route, be sure to read the instructions. The expander ball is adjustable. It's supposed to be set low but mine came from the factory at the highest possible point. I set it up like I would have set up any other sizing die and I crushed the necks of quite a few pieces of brass before this forum helped me figure out what was going on.
                                Thanks for the side by side Stoney.. I'm kinda in the throws of decision as well.

                                Comment

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