In praise of the Grendel, long range session today.

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  • usmcm16a2
    Warrior
    • Aug 2015
    • 538

    In praise of the Grendel, long range session today.

    Folks,


    I built a new Upper for hunting, and took it to our local range. Spinta Precision 20" type one chamber, rifle length gas system, BCA Upper with the side charger. BCA bolt carrier, 7.62 bolt with Spinta heavy duty extractor. Nitrided gas tube, JoeBob adjustable gas block, STNGR 15" m-lock rail.
    The lower is a Tennessee Arms polymer, G2S Geissle trigger. Great shooter, did the barrel break and in. Then set about getting my scope adjusted. I will be using three types of ammo, 95gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos at 2675fps, 123gr Amax at 2550fps, and 118gr Cavity Back Bullets MKZ.
    The MKZ is traveling about 2600 fps. So using the Amax as my sighting in load, I set a 100 yard zero. Then adjusted the scope, for the 95gr CC. It was about 3 MOA high at 100yd, so from zero I dropped the MOA 12 clicks down, then made my adjustments for the 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 silhouette targets. Damn can this gun shoot, 5 for 5 at the 22 inch ram at 600.
    The 118gr MKZ shot in the same manner, found its zero starting from the one for the Amax. Then I did the 200-600 adjustments. It may seem to some that keeping the Amax zero, and adjusting the scope for the other bullets is silly. But it is the easiest way for me to keep track.
    I was at the range for 5 hours today. And I really came to understand this little cartridge in way that never really did before. The ease of reloading, the lack of recoil, the platforms light weight. When one is shooting the controllability. Being able to put the round on target. The satisfying slam of the bullet in the steel at long distance.
    I have both the Creedmoor and the Grendel, yes the Creedmoor is more powerful. But although it's recoil is mild, it is heavier than the Grendel. The round uses more resources, more brass, more powder. Controllability is more of a problem with the Creedmoor, it is harder to stay on target. Sight picture with the Grendel is easier to maintain, I could shot a round, and fire another shot while 1st bullet was in the air. Bill Alexander came up with the perfect AR15 cartridge. A 2
  • VASCAR2
    Chieftain
    • Mar 2011
    • 6219

    #2
    I think yor sentiments are exactly why so many of us have been attracted to the 6.5 Grendel. Seeing the spash and swing of a steel target then hearing the glang a couple seconds later is just plain fun and addicting. Glad to hear you had a good day at the range!
    Last edited by VASCAR2; 07-28-2017, 02:00 AM.

    Comment

    • LRRPF52
      Super Moderator
      • Sep 2014
      • 8569

      #3
      It's hard to get it across with words because our language has been wrung dry by people using exaggerations and the most extreme adjectives they can possible find to explain simple things.

      You put into few words what I also have experienced and try to communicate.

      I never thought I would shoot more 6.5 Grendel than my .260 Rem gasser, which is a laser, but because it's so much easier to shoot and maintain sight picture, with no drama, I ended up shooting Grendel more and more.

      It's also easier for me to throw a lightweight little AR15 in a case and head to the range. Every time I think about packing up my .260 Rem gas gun, I have an inherent aversion to lugging the case around, and I have the compact Storm hard case where I fit the upper and lower into a shorter profile, places for mags everywhere, nice package.

      Easier to grab a little soft case, slap an AR15 in it with mags in the pockets, grab my range bag, tripod & scope, head out the door.
      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

      www.AR15buildbox.com

      Comment

      • shooter545
        Warrior
        • Aug 2012
        • 249

        #4
        You sing and I'll stomp my feet!

        I spent a buttload of money on a custom .260 gasser and thought it was the ultimate Shite. Then I was shooting the MGM Ironman 3 gun match several years ago and was squadded with Neil Emory of Hornady. He shot before me on the stage that has a sniper rifle shoot for bonus targets. It is a really high pay off if you shoot and hit the bonus targets. Neil shot before me and I watched him shoot. He did really well and then got to the part where he shot the sniper rifle for bonus score(like 5 second per target hit off your match score. That is a a lot.) and he wore them out.

        As he was coming back up range I noticed he had a regular AR15. I asked him what in the hell load in 5.56 he was shooting that allowed him to clean all the bonus targets(500-900yds) like he did. He said that it was Bennie Cooley's JP 6.5 Grendel and it was easy. I stood there with my mouth open.

        Thus was the beginning of my 6.5 Grendel journey. Shortly there after I found a 20" AA on the boards here for sale(thank you to fellow Army Warrant Officer)I now have
        three of them and my super high speed custom .260 just seems to sit in the safe.

        I work in the gun/defense industry and shoot a lot of .308 and 5.56 for demos, but if you say "Lets's head to the range and shoot I'm going to grab a 6.5 Grendel every time. Shoots really hard and really easy.

        I keep the other stuff for work demos but it just that work tools.

        Comment

        • usmcm16a2
          Warrior
          • Aug 2015
          • 538

          #5
          Gents,


          I concur with your statements, the Creedmoor seems to the hot cartridge at the moment. It deserves its place in the pantheon of greats. But the Grendel is building steam and is on its way to become one of the great cartridges. The boat anchor or a 6.5 Creedmoor is just no fun to shoot. It's heavy, the recoil is managable, but for field use it is a non-starter.
          I recently spent $1400 plus $600 for optics on a Christensen Arms Mesa in 6.5 Creedmoor. And have no regrets, it is light, accurate and the only SEMI-custom bolt gun I have ever owned. It came to me stripped at 6.5 pounds, by the time I was done with scope, mount, and bipod I was a hair under 8lbs. As we all know bigger cartridges mean more weight. I will be 51 this October, when I hunted deer in my 30's I hunter with an M1!!!!!!!
          But as I become older, I want less weight, more compact fire arms, and less recoil. With that I am considering buying one of Howa's micro actions. Some of the members descriptions of their rifles fully loaded weighing 7 pounds!!!!!!! Cannot do that with a Creedmoor. A2

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            #6
            Originally posted by shooter545 View Post
            You sing and I'll stomp my feet!

            I spent a buttload of money on a custom .260 gasser and thought it was the ultimate Shite. Then I was shooting the MGM Ironman 3 gun match several years ago and was squadded with Neil Emory of Hornady. He shot before me on the stage that has a sniper rifle shoot for bonus targets. It is a really high pay off if you shoot and hit the bonus targets. Neil shot before me and I watched him shoot. He did really well and then got to the part where he shot the sniper rifle for bonus score(like 5 second per target hit off your match score. That is a a lot.) and he wore them out.

            As he was coming back up range I noticed he had a regular AR15. I asked him what in the hell load in 5.56 he was shooting that allowed him to clean all the bonus targets(500-900yds) like he did. He said that it was Bennie Cooley's JP 6.5 Grendel and it was easy. I stood there with my mouth open.

            Thus was the beginning of my 6.5 Grendel journey. Shortly there after I found a 20" AA on the boards here for sale(thank you to fellow Army Warrant Officer)I now have
            three of them and my super high speed custom .260 just seems to sit in the safe.

            I work in the gun/defense industry and shoot a lot of .308 and 5.56 for demos, but if you say "Lets's head to the range and shoot I'm going to grab a 6.5 Grendel every time. Shoots really hard and really easy.

            I keep the other stuff for work demos but it just that work tools.
            So I'm not the only one who has had that experience with the .260 Remington and 6.5 Grendel I see.

            I really like the performance of both cartridges out of gas guns, but the Grendel is just easier to deal with all around.

            Wish we would have had something like this in the tool box in Sniper Sections, where an M4 or SPR-profile blaster could serve as both a shoot-and-move fighting blaster, to a precision long range platform that doesn't scorch barrels in Sniper school either.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • sneaky one
              Chieftain
              • Mar 2011
              • 3077

              #7
              Yup, lighter is better as we get older.

              Depending upon hunting-shot distances,we don't need much , as huge power.. Remember the Handgun huntin craze decades back? They could whack deer at 200 yds.

              This is the Grrr, the main reason I negated upon buying the .260 for hunting short to medium ranges.
              Last edited by sneaky one; 08-02-2017, 12:16 AM.

              Comment

              • borregobob

                #8
                I'm glad to see those relatively inexpensive Spinta Barrels perform so well.

                Comment

                • waccamawscout
                  Bloodstained
                  • Mar 2016
                  • 60

                  #9
                  I have one that is now being built. Hope to have as good of results

                  Comment

                  • The Profit Joseph Sith
                    Warrior
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 596

                    #10
                    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                    So I'm not the only one who has had that experience with the .260 Remington and 6.5 Grendel I see.

                    I really like the performance of both cartridges out of gas guns, but the Grendel is just easier to deal with all around.

                    Wish we would have had something like this in the tool box in Sniper Sections, where an M4 or SPR-profile blaster could serve as both a shoot-and-move fighting blaster, to a precision long range platform that doesn't scorch barrels in Sniper school either.

                    Comment

                    • bj139
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 1968

                      #11
                      The 6.5mm has a range of bullet weights from 85g to 160g, probably more. These range from heavy 5.56 to light 308. Different loads could be used to simulate the current cartridges.

                      Comment

                      • Kilco
                        Chieftain
                        • Jan 2016
                        • 1201

                        #12
                        Well said! You summed up most of our experience with the Grendel very well!

                        My father has more custom rifles than I can count, and shoots almost every night. When I was investing in the Grendel and singing it's praise, man did he ever rag on me.. "too slow" "build a ar10 creedmoor like mine" "what the he'll good is it." Just some of the remark.

                        A year later, he has a Howa mini Grendel, a 20.5" Vepr Grendel, and we are building him a 22" JP Grendel upper atm... lol..

                        You really need to shoot it to appreciate the performance you get with under 30gr of powder.

                        Comment

                        • Cockednlocked
                          Bloodstained
                          • Jun 2016
                          • 50

                          #13
                          Originally posted by bj139 View Post
                          The 6.5mm has a range of bullet weights from 85g to 160g, probably more. These range from heavy 5.56 to light 308. Different loads could be used to simulate the current cartridges.
                          The Grendel's "sweet spot" is probably the 123 grain, at least in an AR chassis. Bigger (heavier) than that, the bullet starts using case capacity that requires decreasing the powder load, and velocity suffers. If you can load longer (not restricted by magazine length), then 140's do work well, although I see them as more of a choice for a Creedmoor. Recoil with the 140's in my AR is greater, and the 120fps I give up in MV with those loads over the 123's isn't made up by the better BC the 140 has, at least past 750 yards.

                          Since building my AR Grendel upper, it's about all I shoot any more, and I have a very nice M1A Loaded and another good .308 bolt gun. My 123 AMAX's are supersonic at 1125 yards (2660 MV) from a 20" barrel and I get consistent 7-8/10 hits at 1000 yards on 18" steel plates. The misses are due to the shooter, and not the rifle. I've thought about building/buying a Creedmoor, but the only advantage I can see, for me anyway, is being able to reach another 200 yards or so. Not worth the price.
                          Last edited by Cockednlocked; 08-13-2017, 04:27 PM.

                          Comment

                          • StoneHendge
                            Chieftain
                            • May 2016
                            • 2009

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Cockednlocked View Post
                            The Grendel's "sweet spot" is probably the 123 grain, at least in an AR chassis. Bigger (heavier) than that, the bullet starts using case capacity that requires decreasing the powder load, and velocity suffers. If you can load longer (not restricted by magazine length), then 140's do work well, although I see them as more of a choice for a Creedmoor. Recoil with the 140's in my AR is greater, and the 120fps I give up in MV with those loads over the 123's isn't made up by the better BC the 140 has, at least past 750 yards.

                            Since building my AR Grendel upper, it's about all I shoot any more, and I have a very nice M1A Loaded and another good .308 bolt gun. My 123 AMAX's are supersonic at 1125 yards (2660 MV) from a 20" barrel and I get consistent 7-8/10 hits at 1000 yards on 18" steel plates. The misses are due to the shooter, and not the rifle. I've thought about building/buying a Creedmoor, but the only advantage I can see, for me anyway, is being able to reach another 200 yards or so. Not worth the price.
                            Wind deflection is where the Cream S'more really has the advantage. Take a 123 Scenar going near published max from a Grendel and a 140 VLD going near published max from a Cream S'more and the deflection of the Cream S'more will be 75% of the Grendel. Meaning the deflection of the Grendel will be 33% more, leaving more room for error in a wind call. I'm working on an AR10 but am in no rush since the winds in my parts have been calm for the last 2 months, but once the aspens start to drop their leaves, the 10- 20 mph variable wind days will return and I'm betting that I'll be willing to trade some recoil for wind performance. Plus a heavy AR-10 might be less prone to blowing over in a gust too .

                            Cream S'more is also popular since it is "easier" - more velocity & higher BC = less drop = larger "danger zone". I.e., more room on the vertical side for there to be shooter error and still record a hit.
                            Let's go Brandon!

                            Comment

                            • LRRPF52
                              Super Moderator
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 8569

                              #15
                              Yup. 6.5CM, .260 Rem, and 6.5x47L all have less wind deflection and more retained energy on target, not even a question about it.

                              Off the top of my head, you can get 1.9 mils or less (drift) depending on the bullet at 1000yds, whereas Grendel will not break 2 mils, and usually more like 2.3 to 2.5 mils of drift.

                              From a 22-24", you can shoot the 130gr VLD at 2550fps and get 2.5 mils of drift at 1000yds, but .6 mils is a big deal for competition purposes.

                              Most competitors will agree that those .6 mils difference are the easiest points you can buy, which is why so many shoot a 6x47 or 6 Creedmoor at 3100fps with a BC in the .31 G7 region, giving you 1.5 mils at 1000yds.

                              Registering the hits past 700yds becomes more and more difficult with the 6mms though, so you could have a hit, but a lesser experienced RO (3 years or less spotting time) will often not perceive your hit as a hit, so sucks to be you.

                              Of them all, I find it the easiest to get trigger time with Grendel due to factory ammo cost/availability, brass life, short load times with 30gr case vs 40gr, and very low recoil where the learning curve is steep behind the rifle in the wind using an AR15 vs a bolt gun with more recoil.
                              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                              www.AR15buildbox.com

                              Comment

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