Reloading and Hand Loading Advice

[LRRPF52]

If you are just new to reloading and hand loading, please refrain from giving advice to others, but feel free to ask questions.

We collectively have centuries of reloading experience here on the forum from guys who have been avid hand-loaders since the 1970s, maybe even earlier.

The experience pool you are tapping into here on this site ranges from retired engineers with careers specifically working with military R&D programs after years of operational experience delivering ordnance, NRA Distinguished Riflemen, firearms industry engineers, to guys who have safely and successfully been loading for decades.

We have the unique perspectives of foreign-based hand loaders from Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, as well as the frequent input from Bill Alexander, who has done more actual piezoelectric testing on the 6.5 Grendel and many other cartridge over his career as an engineer specifically trained and employed for working on small arms and military self-propelled armor systems.

If you are just new to hand loading and picking up things as you go, please refrain from issuing out advice about the subject.

We want to maintain a positive, friendly, and welcoming forum as we've always been, but every now and then, we see those who have no business even cracking open a reloading handbook, let alone approaching the bench.

If you are "that guy", understand that hand-loading and metallic rifle cartridge reloading is a discipline, not a hobby or a way to promote your ego. Kindly refrain from posting advice in here and stick to factory ammunition.

We normally don't have problems in this area, but every few years, someone with a personality disorder comes along and assumes that reloading is a great hobby to dabble in, quickly assume expertise status in, then issue out advice.

[borregobob]

I would like to add that the forum mods sell reloading manuals or pamphlets that are compiled from user data so they will very politely point you to purchase the manual. If you ever ask for reloading advice they will just point you to purchase the manual. Don't bother asking for help just get the pamplets they will keep pointing you to it anyways. Also recommend buying the foam filled box that LRRPF52 here sells. Not sure what you'll use a foam filled box for or why LRRPF52 would sell a foam filled box but maybe he'll leave you alone if you buy the reloading pamplet and foam filled box. So yes just buy the foam filled boxes and the pamplets it seems stupid i know but just do it. Ignore my advice at your own peril.

- You're drunk. Step away from the keyboard. -

[montana]

Was that necessary borregobob?

[Bigs28]

Funny borr considering ive seen lrrpf52 give more free quality advice to myself and everyone on this site.

[LRRPF52]

I would like to add that the forum mods sell reloading manuals or pamphlets that are compiled from user data so they will very politely point you to purchase the manual. If you ever ask for reloading advice they will just point you to purchase the manual. Don't bother asking for help just get the pamplets they will keep pointing you to it anyways. Also recommend buying the foam filled box that LRRPF52 here sells. Not sure what you'll use a foam filled box for or why LRRPF52 would sell a foam filled box but maybe he'll leave you alone if you buy the reloading pamplet and foam filled box. So yes just buy the foam filled boxes and the pamplets it seems stupid i know but just do it. Ignore my advice at your own peril.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]9522[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9523[/ATTACH]

You were the person "that guy" I had specifically in mind for this thread.

I already tracked who you are, a re-tread who has been banned how many times now? For those that are just watching this, know that borregobob is a banned retread who has some kind of strange issue that is beyond the scope of this forum. It wouldn't matter if we were on a Kawasaki forum or local CA gun board to him, he would show up with the same issues that have nothing really to do with the subject at hand here. We don't run the type of service appropriate for him, so don't expect to see him around any longer. Also be advised that he started his own forum after being banned here and on AR15.com, as well as a Facebook page where he appears to be promoting certain barrel manufacturer's products for financial benefit, without disclosure. He just recently started trashing another manufacturer's products with a thread here within the past few days as anyone can see, then predictably inserted promotions for the company he works with and their barrels. I don't have a problem with someone promoting a company based on an honest review, but you should disclose if you are profiting from them along with the review.

For those that are wondering about the motive behind the 6.5 Grendel Handbooks, it was always and still is a set of resources intended to benefit those who own 6.5 Grendel rifles, as well as those who reload for them.

There are common questions that pop up here on the forum and have done so for years dating back to the original forum, that the handbooks cover. We envisioned and brought them to reality for the benefit of the forum, as well as other Grendel owners out there who might never view a forum.

Contrary to borregobob's claims, you will still see me answer people's questions in great detail as to what powders or bullets to use. Life would actually be a lot easier if I didn't have to bother with the handbooks, but because of the initial vision and years of effort put into making them a reality, I choose to stay involved with bringing them to market. People are free to buy or not buy them, with no negative consequences ever implied here. There certainly isn't a financial incentive to print reloading handbooks in today's world. The big companies go into it with the knowledge that they are loss-leaders and marketing tools for their bullets, powders, brass, or ammunition.

I don't make bullets, brass, powders, or ammunition. Go look up how much it costs to print on the quality of paper that we do, in color on at least a third of the pages, have them wire-o bound, and get back to me. You know how many other variant cartridges there are for the AR15 with fans of them that have been talking about printing handbooks for their pet cartridges? There are at least 3 off the top of my head who have forums with thousands of members or more, that still have never done it to this day, but have been talking about it for years now. .458 SOCOM, .300 Blackout, and 6.5 Creedmoor have had many people ask me in private if we could do the same thing for those cartridges.

There just isn't money in it, and the labor and testing involved is substantial. If anyone knows that, Joe, Greg and I do. So when I see some low post count retread come along and start issuing advice, or even correcting people like me who have literally spent years poring over data, running it through testing from internal, external, to terminal ballistics using industry standards and tons of peer-review from engineers and industry professionals, I'm going to need to see something more than bad English and childish behavior.

[biodsl]

Sadly, LRRPF52 has to defend himself for awesome efforts adding value to this forum and the Grendel community. Anytime I see one of his posts I read it because I know it's a no BS opinion born out of years of first hand experience and expertise. If he makes a pittance off the reloading manual and Build Box, more power to him. The work put into those books shows. And just so you know my bias; I'm a satisfied customer of both products. Volume II in particular lessen my learning curve and gave me the confidence to dive head long into this wonderful cartridge.

Boot the Negative-Nellie. It's all projection.

[Klem]

I would like to add that the forum mods sell reloading manuals or pamphlets that are compiled from user data so they will very politely point you to purchase the manual. If you ever ask for reloading advice they will just point you to purchase the manual. Don't bother asking for help just get the pamplets they will keep pointing you to it anyways. Also recommend buying the foam filled box that LRRPF52 here sells. Not sure what you'll use a foam filled box for or why LRRPF52 would sell a foam filled box but maybe he'll leave you alone if you buy the reloading pamplet and foam filled box. So yes just buy the foam filled boxes and the pamplets it seems stupid i know but just do it. Ignore my advice at your own peril.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]9522[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9523[/ATTACH]

I was wondering who 52 was referring to until I read your post. The bottom line is this forum does not belong to us. We are guests in someone else's effort and need to act that way; with polite and professional courtesy. If those with formal status want to promote items that fund their expertise then I say good luck to them. You don't have to buy it, but you don't get to criticise the practise either. You don't get to criticise because you are not the same status as those that run this site. It's that simple - It's their way or the highway. When you think about it, subordination to the rules and etiquette of this forum is the only real price being asked of us... Is that too much to pay?

[LRRPF52]

I would gladly take back every hour, day, week, and years I've spent on the 6.5 Grendel Handbooks and spend it with my family or something that actually makes money, but I stuck with it for some reason.

I'm sure the others probably feel similarly. We put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into the Handbooks with no real return. Any revenue goes back into the next large order from the printer. It isn't cheap, I can tell you that.

I wish we could offer them at a lower price point, but the increasing costs of printing and shipping are substantial. I personally refer to them regularly though for my own use, let alone trying to help out someone with questions.

We've gotten a lot of positive feedback on them though, to the point that like I said, .458 SOCOM, .300 Whisper/AAC, and 6.5 Creedmoor hand loaders have asked multiple times for me to see if the others would do the same for those.

"You guys should really do one for __________. That would be great!"

Me: "You have no idea how much time and effort went into these things, and the margins just aren't there."

[borregobob]

I was wondering who 52 was referring to until I read your post. The bottom line is this forum does not belong to us. We are guests in someone else's effort and need to act that way; with polite and professional courtesy. If those with formal status want to promote items that fund their expertise then I say good luck to them. You don't have to buy it, but you don't get to criticise the practise either. You don't get to criticise because you are not the same status as those that run this site. It's that simple - It's their way or the highway. When you think about it, subordination to the rules and etiquette of this forum is the only real price being asked of us... Is that too much to pay?

Actually the data everyone shared does belong to you and everyone but no matter continue on. Buy the pamplet i highly recommend you do and the foam filled box.

[Kilco]

You never have to justify yourself LRRPF52.

Your work, help, and commitment is GREATLY appreciated by us who are guests on this forum.

If you ever come to Maine, stop by for a beer and some late night coyote hunting.

[LRRPF52]

Actually the data everyone shared does belong to you and everyone but no matter continue on. Buy the pamplet i highly recommend you do and the foam filled box.

Also be advised borregobob/Xcountryrider/Barrelcactus took member-provided data and made changes to it on a spreadsheet he has that he's trying to distribute, which has component data on it that has been recalled.

Problem was, he also substituted primer data other than what was listed by the original poster, and also had that person's screen name next to the data.

That forum member noticed it, and said, "What's going on here? I see my name, but that's not my data."

Classic examples of what I'm talking about. He also took data several years ago that he read online that was listed somewhere for a 120gr bullet, and figured that it was transferable to the 120gr TSX. Came on here asking about the magic 5R rifling of his barrel allowing him to run a 120gr TSX at over 2820fps. Keep in mind that piezoelectric data from a 24" with that bullet tops out at just a tad over 2500fps (2503fps). Nope, can't be told. It's the 5R rifling and you're trying to handicap the cartridge if you don't agree. Asked him what his work-up load procedures and velocities were....crickets. He just pulled some load from online and went with it under one of the bullets that builds pressure faster than 90% of the rest of them and blasted that bad boy.

Now he's qualified to run his own forum dealing with reloading, issues out advice left and right like he knows a thing about what's going on, uses the approach of lashing out at people who have actually done it right collectively using industry standards and peer review/engineering review. Beware of people like this, as I know what that recipe looks like when it comes out of the oven, or what the kitchen looks like in the aftermath at least.

[rabiddawg]

Hey borregobob

Bye bye

Welcome to my ignore list

[Kilco]

Isn't that the same guy who claimed to be "sponsored" by Sierra and Barnes?!

I can't help but envision some guy who takes massive bong rips and comes up with these amazing delusions and starts vomiting them all over the web..

How do these folks survive day to day?! Amazes me.

[Klem]

Actually the data everyone shared does belong to you and everyone but no matter continue on. Buy the pamplet i highly recommend you do and the foam filled box.

I take it you are deflecting my suggestion you are being obnoxious by focussing on intellectual property (IP). I'll bite...My take on this is that everyone retains what's called the 'moral right' to their unique creative works, referred to as IP. When you choose to post your IP online to this forum and the forum lists all posts without re-categorisation, selection or organisation (you choose where your post goes) then there is no implied claim to a unique/creative work. In other words, the forum owners are not recreating your IP into a whole new creative work, which would require your permission. I would add that if you choose to post your IP on this site then there's also the argument that implied in the post is a copyright.

Using your data however in subsequent documents beyond the forum and without permission (unless it is clearly stated in the agreement of when you register) would be a situation where you could intervene to prevent this, legally. Copying small passages however and correctly referencing the original author is an example of 'fair use' which would be the defence against any claim. Different parts of the world have different IP laws so you would need to consider this also.

[LRRPF52]

Isn't that the same guy who claimed to be "sponsored" by Sierra and Barnes?!

I can't help but envision some guy who takes massive bong rips and comes up with these amazing delusions and starts vomiting them all over the web..

How do these folks survive day to day?! Amazes me.

Same guy. I think this is at least the 3rd forum handle he's had here. Used to go by Xcountryrider, then Barrelcactus.

He took member-provided data and complied a spreadsheet with it, saying it's the most comprehensive set of reloading data for the 6.5 Grendel....

...first load had recalled critical component in it. Bill A. looked it over and found .260 Rem velocities with one of the loads too, just like back when he was banned the first time. If I was the barrel company he seems to have a relationship with, I would distance myself from him as far as possible, as it gives them a bad name. Might work out in the short term for sales, but long-term can really hurt a company's reputation when a bad apple promotes their stuff every which way but Sunday, including trashing other companies.