Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 41 to 60 of 60

Thread: Lighter high end optic

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    Thanks for making my point. The Forum is replete with Vortex fans, some who believe in the brand like a religion. And woe betide anyone who points out they are only one brand, and also not a high-end reputational brand.

    What about other scope manufacturers like Leupold, Nikon, Schmitt and Bender, Swarovski, Khales, Nightforce, Zeiss, Valdada, Weaver, Bushnell, Steiner, Hensoldt and US Optics? Do you have enough experience to be able to talk across all scopes with authority?

    In answer to your question, I have a PST which sits on my little 22L. How many March scopes have you owned? How about dialing back your brand loyalty and looking beyond the narrow view that is one brand of scope. I understand that for many people they look for savings on what is a relatively cheap gun in the first place, meaning price is an important criterion. I would also argue that in an AR15 platform the true precision of a March might not be as obvious as on an 8kg F-Class bolt gun with Stolle Panda action. But this OP is asking about the highest quality scope that is mutually exclusive of price. Unfortunately Vortex, while being good value for money is not even in the race.
    Thou doth protest too much.....

    My brand loyalty? I own scopes from 5 of the companies you listed. Authority? I'd suggest I have none. But, as you seem to present as one, i was simply asking the question. What kind of experience do you have with vortex's newer high end lines? How much time have you put in behind them, in order to pass judgement? What is your relationship with March, as you seem to have special access that the general public would not?

    I think you suffer from the same biases you suggest.....

  2. #42
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by mdram View Post
    Good luck turning up to a long range match with your 27x Vortex, shooting alongside shooters with higher magnifications. Including 60x and 80x March. That review is either biased or steeped in ignorance. 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics' (Mark Twain).

  3. #43
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by keystone183 View Post
    Thou doth protest too much.....

    My brand loyalty? I own scopes from 5 of the companies you listed. Authority? I'd suggest I have none. But, as you seem to present as one, i was simply asking the question. What kind of experience do you have with vortex's newer high end lines? How much time have you put in behind them, in order to pass judgement? What is your relationship with March, as you seem to have special access that the general public would not?

    I think you suffer from the same biases you suggest.....

    Way too many questions my friend, especially when you didn't answer mine. As for my access to equipment...You will never know.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    Good luck turning up to a long range match with your 27x Vortex, shooting alongside shooters with higher magnifications. Including 60x and 80x March. That review is either biased or steeped in ignorance. 'Lies, damned lies, and statistics' (Mark Twain).
    Wut.

    The article is talking about PRS, not benchrest or other types of long range shooting done off stable rests or built up positions. Shooting off a barricade thru mirage and wind at a partially obscured UKD target against the clock is not done at 60x.

  5. #45
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by m796rider View Post
    Wut.

    The article is talking about PRS, not benchrest or other types of long range shooting done off stable rests or built up positions. Shooting off a barricade thru mirage and wind at a partially obscured UKD target against the clock is not done at 60x.
    Correct, my mistake, I read the article with more detail this time. I note March is not even mentioned, even in the other 12% (bottom of page).

  6. #46
    Super Moderator LRRPF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,598
    I have extensively used and owned most of the brands and popular models mentioned in this thread so far, including:

    Hensoldt
    March
    Schmidt & Bender
    NightForce
    US Optics
    Leica models unavailable in the US
    Vortex Razor Gen I and II
    Leupold Mark 6
    Vortex Viper PST

    I have not owned or spent much time with Kahles to be able to provide an informed opinion of them.

    I literally have no affiliation with any of these companies other than being a customer for many years. I used a Hensoldt 3-12x56 FFP optic when my partner and I placed 2nd in FinnSniper in 2008. Used USO, NF and Schmidt in some of the other matches. There weren't any Vortex options back then that I had heard of.

    In PRS, the Vortex Razor HD Gen II is the most popular scope among the top 100 shooters Nationally and has been for the past 2 years, overtaking the Schmidt PMII.




    As to military use...




    The reason I advocate for Vortex and NightForce for self-loaders like the AR15 in Grendel, the AR10, and the SCAR is because I know for a fact those two companies bed their optical elements with epoxy in order to take reciprocating mass effect recoil and impact forces from the BCG. If March does the same, put them on that short list as well. I agree fully that March glass is some of the best I've ever seen, reminds me more of the image quality and perception with a Hensoldt or Leica. There was a 2.5-10x March I was shooting on top of a bolt gun out to 700yds, and I was just firing away like normal. It wasn't until I looked at the magnification setting to realize I was only on 2.5x, and I had 100% hits rapid fired with rapid bolt manipulation. Awesome little scope that has always been in the back of my mind since then.

    Truth is we are spoiled nowadays with phenomenal optics selection among a handful of brands. I frequently recommend Vortex HST or PST to people on a budget because they simply aren't going to glass all their rifles with $3-$6k optics. I've dealt with CS with several of the companies when the scopes failed, and have learned what the return rates are for certain brands, some of which were 19% last I had the conversation (for a $2400 scope). I had an S&B PMII's side focus die on me right before I was to fly out for an international sniper competition, and had to find another solution quickly because S&B CS was like frozen tar at the time (Germany).

    We had a guy show up to BoomerShoot for the precision rifle clinic a few years back. Dropped his rifle from the back of his rental upside down onto the parking lot asphalt a day prior to the course snd smashed his elevation knob/turret in pretty bad. Vortex shipped him a new scope next-day air with morning delivery, even though he told them it was his fault, he was willing to pay. They said not to worry, just focus on the course and send the broken unit back when he's done. I've never seen that with another company.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    Way too many questions my friend, especially when you didn't answer mine. As for my access to equipment...You will never know.
    LOL. Exactly.

    If it wasn't obvious, i have no experience with March. Which is the point. Stunningly similar to your experience with Vortex.....

  8. #48
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    Talking about S&B customer service I was involved with returning a PMII because the illumination did not work out of the box. We were required to contact them first but it was like pulling teeth. Their staff were unconvinced such a basic fault slipped past their checks and instead tried to convince us we had the battery in upside down. In the end they reluctantly accepted it back and fixed it. Postage to Germany and back was as slow as you would expect.

  9. #49
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by keystone183 View Post
    LOL. Exactly.

    If it wasn't obvious, i have no experience with March. Which is the point. Stunningly similar to your experience with Vortex.....
    Give it a rest mate.

  10. #50
    Super Moderator LRRPF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,598
    Let's not have any maximum effective urination engagement range checks here guys. No matter who is left standing, everyone still gets covered in it.

    Rotate selector levers from Full back down to Semi or Safe.

    That said, after seeing that little March 1-8x, my pants are kinda tight.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

  11. #51
    I like that march mini as well I just wish they offered it in moa. I know I could learn mil in no time but all my other scopes are moa

  12. #52
    I think the main reason Vortex is at the top for the PRS stuff is they sponsor a lot of shooters, BUT in the precision rifle world it really is hard to top the feature set the Gen II Razor brings to the table for the price point. That being said all the reviews and tacking tests I've seen on the March have been perfect.

    Check out the review Snipershide did on the March, Frank isn't going to push a bad scope, and he knows what he's talking about in the precision rifle world for sure!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kig4...wvdfz3w2zyn4e0

    I personally don't care for the reticles March has and I love the EBR-2C and EBR-7 from Vortex, but I also don't want a ship anchor on my AR (Gen II Razor, lol). I'm thinking the Razor AMG is right up my ally for my build, just need to recover from the cost of the gun first, lol. The warranty on the Vortex is also amazing.

    Seriously don't think you can wrong with either one.
    Jake

  13. #53
    Bloodstained
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    Let's not have any maximum effective urination engagement range checks here guys. No matter who is left standing, everyone still gets covered in it.

    Rotate selector levers from Full back down to Semi or Safe.

    That said, after seeing that little March 1-8x, my pants are kinda tight.
    My sentiments exactly. I have been wanting a 1-8x for a while and bought a Kahles 1-8 in December which I really liked overall but I returned it because the Chromatic Aberration was too much for me.

  14. #54
    Bloodstained
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Jose. CA
    Posts
    96
    Quote Originally Posted by dega37 View Post
    My sentiments exactly. I have been wanting a 1-8x for a while and bought a Kahles 1-8 in December which I really liked overall but I returned it because the Chromatic Aberration was too much for me.
    I got a March 1-8 earlier this year (the standard, not the compact), and i really like it. The reticle takes a little getting used to, but it's one hell of a nice scope.

  15. #55
    Bloodstained
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    76
    The March reticle does seem a bit odd. Is each hash mark really a full mil? How is the eye relief and eye box?

  16. #56
    Super Moderator LRRPF52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,598
    Quote Originally Posted by acourvil View Post
    I got a March 1-8 earlier this year (the standard, not the compact), and i really like it. The reticle takes a little getting used to, but it's one hell of a nice scope.
    Is there any issue with the mils they use versus your ballistics program?

    How do their mils read in the reticle measurement-wise? Is 1 mil in that reticle the same as 1 mil in another?
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

  17. #57
    Warrior rwh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    150
    From marchoptics.com

    About our Milliradian (Mil-rad) Reticle Scopes.
    We often get asked if our Mil-rad calculations are "correct" to the USMC standards. Yes, they are.
    Any March Scope with a Mil-rad reticle that you purchase from March Optics USA, Inc. or from bullets.com is guaranteed to precisely match the USMC spec Mil-rad which is 1/6283.
    Last edited by rwh; 08-20-2017 at 03:55 AM.

  18. #58
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Twin Peaks WA
    Posts
    1,104
    March scopes sold to civilians are 1/6283.

    This is from the Australian rep who was the first retailer of March in the world (and has been with them ever since). For background info Jim Kelbly is a notable US bench-rest shooter who was the first retailer of March in the USA. If anyone has ever dealt with Mr Kelbly you may get the impression he is knowledgeable enough, but not the most customer-oriented retailer in the industry. He has since been replaced.

    (Klem,)
    1/6283.

    That test report done by that website involved some scopes supplied by Jim Kelbly. The first one he supplied for that testing was a 42mm model and a prototype. Not smart and was the wrong model he should have supplied for that testing anyway as the 5x-40x was just out by then.

    That prototype version and a very few of the first 42mm models had 1/6400 calibration. Quickly changed by DEON when they realised maybe the other is better.

    Actually a very, very long story about the history of Mils which I won't waste your time with but there are at least 4 standards of mil radians in the world used for rifle scopes. There actually will probably be more rifle scopes used in the world that are 1/6400 because that is the NATO standard and there are one hell of a lot of rifle scopes used by NATO countries and others (including Australian military).

    Anyway for commercial use everyone agrees the 1/6283 standard is as close as anything to mathematically correct so it may as well be used. Military have different needs to civilian use and that complicates their function. The reason NATO use 6400 is that it is a whole number easily divisible for manual calculations. The Russains use 1/6000 which is probably even smarter in that regard.

    Just BTW, it appears the only military arm in the world that use 1/6283 are the USMC.

    So, for March scopes the summary is this.

    Only the very first few of the 42mm model 3x-24x scopes in about 2010 I believe had the NATO mils and from then on the 6283. All other MARCH scopes always had the 1/6283 calibration.

    For those early 42mm scopes DEON will and have changed the calibration if owners desire.

    Regards,

    Stuart


    Annie & Stuart Elliott
    BRT Shooters Supply,

    PO Box 1124,

    Springwood. 4127. Queensland, Australia.

    Ph + 61 7 38084862

  19. #59
    Bloodstained
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Jose. CA
    Posts
    96
    Quote Originally Posted by dega37 View Post
    The March reticle does seem a bit odd. Is each hash mark really a full mil? How is the eye relief and eye box?
    The reticle is odd compared to the simple hash reticles I have on other scopes, but the circles act sort of like a red dot scope at 1x or low magnifications. It takes some getting used to just because it is different, but it works pretty well (for me at least). As noted above, March is now using true mils. I haven't done a box test with it, but it matches up with the ballistics programs I've used. The eye box/eye relief are great, no issues there.
    Last edited by acourvil; 08-21-2017 at 04:49 PM.

  20. #60
    Bloodstained
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    76
    I might have to make an order soon...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •