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Thread: Lighter high end optic

  1. #21
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    Where is the Vortex Razor LH glass from?

    I was about to pull the trigger on the Razor LH 3-18 for lightweight bolt action when I saw this thread and comments regarding March. I like that 2.5-25x42 from March.

    I have opportunity to get Razor LH at 50% discount; so $550 for 3-18 Razor LH (approx 17 oz) or $1830 for a 2.5-25 March (21 oz)...is March worth the price difference?
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  2. #22
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BjornF16 View Post
    Where is the Vortex Razor LH glass from?

    I was about to pull the trigger on the Razor LH 3-18 for lightweight bolt action when I saw this thread and comments regarding March. I like that 2.5-25x42 from March.

    I have opportunity to get Razor LH at 50% discount; so $550 for 3-18 Razor LH (approx 17 oz) or $1830 for a 2.5-25 March (21 oz)...is March worth the price difference?
    I went looking on Vortex's site and cannot see a Razor 3-18 at 17oz. There's a big 34mm Razor GENII HD 3-18*50 HD which is 46oz, and a 1" Razor with capped turrets 3-15*42 HD LH at 16.5oz. The others have different magnifications.

    Which one are you talking about?

  3. #23
    Super Moderator LRRPF52's Avatar
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    Vortex has a Razor HD hunting line with 1" tubes for lightweight hunting (LH) rifles. Newer product line.

    The one I see is a 3-15x42 HSR at 16.5oz. http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...escope/reticle
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  4. #24
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    Sorry...3-15x42 Razor HD LH, HSR-4, 16.5 oz

    http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...sr4-riflescope
    Last edited by BjornF16; 08-11-2017 at 01:37 AM.
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  5. #25
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    OK, the elevation range in the Vortex HSR4 is only 55MOA but with a 20MOA canted mount you will be able to shoot out to the furthest effective distance of this calibre without issue. Both scope's are made in Japan however without comparing the two it's likely the clarity will be better in the March. The smaller 44mm objective in the Razor theoretically transmits less light, especially noticeable at sunset and at night. The best night exit pupil for the average person's pupil (7mm) which is 6* in the Vortex and 7* in the March, but to be fair both are good hunting magnifications. I cannot vouch for recoil/repeatability in the Vortex but it's likely going to be very good. The specs on the field-of-view between the scopes look the same for the same magnifications.

    A big difference (apart from price) between the two scopes is the 5x magnification range on the Vortex compared with 8x on the March for front focal plane, or 10x for the second focal plane. I am also curious as to why the Vortex has capped turrets; does this mean the scope is not waterproof with them off?

    The price difference is in reputation, light clarity, magnification range and perhaps also repeatability if you could measure this in lab conditions (unlikely to be much difference in repeatability however). You might assume the March uses stronger components and is more robust but that would only be an assumption. Whether these differences are worth the difference in price is up to you. The Bench Rest discipline swears by March and those guys are as pernickety as they come. March pioneered the 10* zoom ratio which other manufacturers are copying so they are both innovative and know their stuff. Again, is all this worth the highest prices you pay?...up to you. They are both nice scopes.

    I wouldn't buy the Vortex for the reasons mentioned above plus the graduations only come in Imperial/MOA. All my scopes are Mils graduations/Mils reticles. I live and work in metric which is more familiar to me, plus Metric is a decimal system so arguably more intuitive for fast calculations. Vortex is a US-owed company so understandably Imperial-biased. The USA is a big market which also explains the prevalence of MOA.

    Why don't you buy the Vortex, sell it for a profit and buy a March? ;-)
    Last edited by Klem; 08-11-2017 at 04:06 AM.

  6. #26
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    Speaking March scopes did you see this 1-8? How are you supposed to mount this thing? http://www.bullets.com/shop/brand_ma...cope?src=march

  7. #27
    As I posted earlier in this thread, I'm a big fan of the 3-15. Furthest I've had it out to is 800 yards, and it did very well.

  8. #28
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dega37 View Post
    Speaking March scopes did you see this 1-8? How are you supposed to mount this thing? http://www.bullets.com/shop/brand_ma...cope?src=march
    With pride?...You use only one scope ring like an Aimpoint. From the website (This special FFP scope has a very short front tube section and requires only one scope ring to mount.)
    http://marchscopes.com/tactical-1-8-x-24-f-shorty.html

  9. #29
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    Klem, where are you at? (I just caught the Twin Peaks reference...lol)

    This wouldn't be for a Grendel, but rather 280 Rem. At sea level shooting 150 gr Accubond LR, drop at 500 yds is 8 MOA. This is the absolute maximum I would take a shot. If I re-barrel to 280 AI, I'll shoot 168 ABLR with approx 9 MOA drop.

    If I were to put it on my Grendel bolt shooting 129 ABLR, then at 500 yd the drop would be approx 10 MOA; 1,000 yds (for fun) would be approx 35 MOA drop.

    I think the capped turrets are a hat tip to hunters. I do prefer tactical style turrets.

    Castor, how does the Razor HD LH perform in low light? My only concern is seeing reticle in low light against wood background. All my other Vortex's are illuminated.
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  10. #30

    Cool

    Just in case you were looking for another option..... https://www.tractoptics.com/products/riflescopes

    I know very little about these guys, other than they come from Nikon and there are a few good reviews on them. Seem to be good value, made in Japan.

    A 3-15x42 at 20oz....

    (sure wish someone would buy one and provide another review)

  11. #31
    Warrior rwh's Avatar
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    +1 for the march 2.5-25x52 if money is no object. I have one on my 6BR. It holds zero and the sight picture is clear across the field of view with very good color. I can find 6mm bullet holes in the black at 200 yards easily, and sometimes at 300 when conditions are perfect.

    The March 1-10x24 is also an option and might be a better match for your rifle. I have a march 1-8x24 FFP on my grendel and like it very much.
    Last edited by rwh; 08-12-2017 at 05:34 PM.

  12. #32
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    I have not owned one, so I am strictly asking out of curiosity..... read some comments about March not tracking 100% and having an unforgiving eye box. Those that have them, have you seen any of those type issues? I'm a Nightforce guy. There is definitely better glass and lighter weights out there, but I get the feeling I can always depend on my NF scopes to work no matter what.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crews View Post
    ... read some comments about March not tracking 100% ... I'm a Nightforce guy. ... I get the feeling I can always depend on my NF scopes to work no matter what.
    All scopes have tracking error i.e. there is no 100% accurate. I have not done this testing myself but a very reputable source states that Tangent Theta has less than .03% scope error, and that Nightforce and Hensoldt have about a 1-2% error, S&B about 3%, Vortex ~3-5%. Whether or not those variations matter would depend per a particular shooter, position stability, target size, and distance. I think in the hunting arena with the Grendel, just about any reputable manufacturer including March would meet those requirements, but then again it is just an assumption. I don't think my source has ever tested a March scope, but if anyone has done a tracking test, I would be interested in them posting their results. The one annoying thing about scope tracking inconsistency is that tracking is different throughout the turret travel, so at one point 3% error and at another point 1% or negligible error.

  14. #34
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    the Precision Rifle Blog guy's research results are often quoted. Like I said, I've never done a tracking test on one so I don't want to come across as a keyboard ninja. Just curious if anyone has had results contrary to these:

    March.PNG

  15. #35
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    The precision rifle blog gave an old 42mm March scope bad marks on tracking, but overlooked that the particular model used was calibrated in NATO mils instead of true mils, which was what the test was based on. If you adjusted for the scale used, the March scope performed as well as other top scopes. The March scope was also a bit of an outlier for the comparison; most of the scopes that were being compared had 50mm or 56mm objectives.

    The eye box on the 42mm scopes is a little tight due to the high magnification factor. But if the scope is set up properly, it is not a problem for most people (recognizing that there is a lot of "personal preference" factors in how well folks like a scope).

  16. #36
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    This may have been changed in more recent March scopes and I will contact the local retailer to confirm. The US website of March claims their Mils graduations are USMC-compatible (1/6283) which is different to the NATO rounding to 1/6400 for ease of calculations.

    Note the claim of a Mil on the right hand side of the page;
    http://marchoptics.com/first-focal-plane

    On speaking with the local March retailer, Stuart Elliot (BRT Supplies) he claims the person who wrote that review (Zak Smith from Demigod LLC and also an employee of Thunderbeast) was annoyed because DEON in Japan would not provide him with a scope to review on request. All the others did. He had to source it from elsewhere which is why it ended up being a smaller objective than the others. Unsurprisingly, the compact 44mm was not favourably reviewed against the 34mm-tubed 50+objectives. Was it a biased review?...To be fair, most reviews are. Deon later released information that you mention which explained away what the reviewer referred to as poor tracking. The March tracked perfectly according to their definition of a Mil.

    There are a few posters who doubt the precision of March but in the same breath also acknowledge they have no experience with them. I have three March scopes and access to more for trial - they work fine, as do my Nightforce NSX scopes. March has the clearest glass I have ever looked through. By contrast, Vortex has almost a monopoly of credibility on this forum. They are referred to constantly in almost every optic thread. Good luck to you all using them but I have never mounted a Vortex on any rifle that matters to me. I have never seen Vortex used in the Military or at any F-Class or Bench rest titles... But I have seen March.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    This may have been changed in more recent March scopes and I will contact the local retailer to confirm. The US website of March claims their Mils graduations are USMC-compatible (1/6283) which is different to the NATO rounding to 1/6400 for ease of calculations.

    Note the claim of a Mil on the right hand side of the page;
    http://marchoptics.com/first-focal-plane

    On speaking with the local March retailer, Stuart Elliot (BRT Supplies) he claims the person who wrote that review (Zak Smith from Demigod LLC and also an employee of Thunderbeast) was annoyed because DEON in Japan would not provide him with a scope to review on request. All the others did. He had to source it from elsewhere which is why it ended up being a smaller objective than the others. Unsurprisingly, the compact 44mm was not favourably reviewed against the 34mm-tubed 50+objectives. Was it a biased review?...To be fair, most reviews are. Deon later released information that you mention which explained away what the reviewer referred to as poor tracking. The March tracked perfectly according to their definition of a Mil.

    There are a few posters who doubt the precision of March but in the same breath also acknowledge they have no experience with them. I have three March scopes and access to more for trial - they work fine, as do my Nightforce NSX scopes. March has the clearest glass I have ever looked through. By contrast, Vortex has almost a monopoly of credibility on this forum. They are referred to constantly in almost every optic thread. Good luck to you all using them but I have never mounted a Vortex on any rifle that matters to me. I have never seen Vortex used in the Military or at any F-Class or Bench rest titles... But I have seen March.
    How many vortex scopes have you owned?

  18. #38
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    Thanks for making my point. The Forum is replete with Vortex fans, some who believe in the brand like a religion. And woe betide anyone who points out they are only one brand, and also not a high-end reputational brand.

    What about other scope manufacturers like Leupold, Nikon, Schmitt and Bender, Swarovski, Khales, Nightforce, Zeiss, Valdada, Weaver, Bushnell, Steiner, Hensoldt and US Optics? Do you have enough experience to be able to talk across all scopes with authority?

    In answer to your question, I have a PST which sits on my little 22L. How many March scopes have you owned? How about dialing back your brand loyalty and looking beyond the narrow view that is one brand of scope. I understand that for many people they look for savings on what is a relatively cheap gun in the first place, meaning price is an important criterion. I would also argue that in an AR15 platform the true precision of a March might not be as obvious as on an 8kg F-Class bolt gun with Stolle Panda action. But this OP is asking about the highest quality scope that is mutually exclusive of price. Unfortunately Vortex, while being good value for money is not even in the race.
    Last edited by Klem; 08-15-2017 at 06:19 AM.

  19. #39
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    Very interesting! Those March scopes definitely seem attractive based on weight and magnification range. Good to hear they're capable of dependable tracking. Might just have to try one out!

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    TBy contrast, Vortex has almost a monopoly of credibility on this forum. They are referred to constantly in almost every optic thread. Good luck to you all using them but I have never mounted a Vortex on any rifle that matters to me. I have never seen Vortex used in the Military or at any F-Class or Bench rest titles... But I have seen March.
    just sayin
    http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/0...opes-pros-use/

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