Common Problems Long Range Marksmanship Trainers See that You Can Avoid

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  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    Common Problems Long Range Marksmanship Trainers See that You Can Avoid

    A forum member asked me recently what common mistakes I've seen and how to avoid them. I thought it would be a good opportunity to take that conversation into the open and invite other trainers and long range shooters to comment.

    Equipment:
    Biggest issues I see with equipment are-

    1. Unsatisfactory scopes brought to courses (Made in China/Russia optics that slip gears, backlash, won't track, won't repeat, reticles break and cant over, etc.)

    Solution: Buy a reputable scope and don't waste a single dime on optics that are garbage. You have to pay to play at long range, and especially on self-loading firearms with reciprocating masses that bash into themselves when chambering the next round.

    2. Garbage mounts and mounting methods. Chinese and Amazon special mounts simply will not cut the mustard. Cross bolts strip the cheap aluminum even at lower torque specs, fasteners strip the rings, everything is wrong about them, dimensions off, cheap, soft alloys made in airsfot-grade factory.

    Torque specs: You need to know the torque specs on your bases, rings, and AR mounts, and follow the manufacturer-specified torque ratings for the different fasteners. On bolt guns, bases need to be attached more securely than you would think. For me, I degrease the surfaces, then use Loc-tite 272 as a gasket between the bottom of the base and the top of the receiver. I also like to rough-texture these surfaces so that they form a better interface for mating, rather than a super-smooth surface that doesn't facilitate good adhesion with the compound.

    You need to have access to a torque wrench with inch-lb ratings and the tool heads that will allow correct interface with your fasteners. I use a Wheeler FAT Wrench. Also, zero out your torque setting each time you use the wrench so that it doesn't have chance to find a new memory.

    Most of your small ring fasteners will not exceed 20 inch-lbs, so don't Gutentite them. The combined clamping force of at least 4 fasteners per ring is more than sufficient to correctly secure your optic in the rings and mount. Also, if you ever see rings with only 2 fasteners per ring (1 on each side), avoid them like the plague. They are probably Chinese, and they will not hold your optic securely.

    The most common factor in bad optic/mount selection is not really budget, but patience. I was there myself many years ago. Just had to have that new scope on the new rifle and couldn't wait to get the one I knew I really needed. Waste of money. Buy the mount with the money you would have spent on garbage optics, and save for the quality optics.


    Showing up to a course without a solid zero on your rifle, with no idea what the muzzle velocity is.

    Solution: Confirm your zero well before attending the course, and get chronograph or Magnetospeed readings for your rifle. If you don't have access to mv measurement, look at the factory ammo specs, compare with your barrel length, and calculate from there with one of the online programs or one of our velocity estimator charts if using 6.5 Grendel. When you do chronograph, take note and record the ambient temperature as well, and get 10 shots for a better sample for your average, as well as barometric pressure for that 100yd zero and fine-tune the zero while you measure the speeds so that POI = POA at 100yds.




    Rifle: Your rifle needs to be reliable with the ammunition and magazines you bring, and be able to hold a group on the target sizes and distances provided in the course. For my DM Courses where we mostly shoot out to 600yds with ARs, a 1.5 MOA rifle/ammo combo is plenty. Your wind calls are more important than the accuracy potential of your barrel.

    Some problems I'm seeing are rifles that don't fit well to the shooter. The SCAR-17 stock and comb is one example that pops up if the scope mount is not really low. Human interface with that and several of the AR15 stocks and scope mount combos is often poor, where 95% of the time, the optic height is so elevated, that the shooter needs a modified jaw weld to gain sight picture even with the best glass and forgiving exit pupil. One thing I see often enough to mention it is scope risers on the top rail, topped with another scope mount. Maybe the idea was 2 is better than one, but not in this case unless your cheek bone is right on your upper teeth level and you have a size special order head of Philistine proportions.

    Heavy triggers are another factor that will significantly reduce your hit probability. With the market the way it is now, there is no reason not to have a quality trigger in your AR or bolt gun, as most of the bolt guns come with some good/great triggers nowadays. The LaRue MBT-2S or Geissele triggers are more than sufficient for a precision rifle class. Rack-grade triggers will make life very hard on you, unless polished.


    Techniques
    Biggest problems I see, and I was guilty of this too, are guys showing up who think they already know how to shoot. Almost every one of them has horrible trigger control, before, during, and after breaking the shot. Most common specific issues I see are:

    Position
    Shooters tend to focus more on the ground than the target, so lose any attention focused towards the target when setting up their position. Once they get into position, they finally look over their rifle and don't see their target, then have to try to re-build their position, range mat, bipod legs, etc.

    As you get into position, the target is your #1 and only reason to be there. Constantly look at the target as you get into position, whether your'e setting up on a mat, tripod, seated, kneeling, prone supported, standing barricade, whatever. Look over your optic at the TGT as you settle in, and then finalize your position with your body and Natural Point Of AIM (NPOA) directed straight and through the TGT.

    Aiming
    All that stuff about the optic and optic height really comes into play here. If you don't have correct optic height and eye relief, your position in relation to the rifle is going to suck, and you won't have a good sight picture that is solidly formed with your head and stock mated naturally. If you have to apply odd or uncomfortable muscular stress to your neck and face, you're going to have a bad day of headache from neck strain. Setting up the rifle/mount/optic combo is crucial in this. You need a concentric field of view into your optical elements of the scope, as close to the ocular lens without being too close. Scope body shadow should be perfectly placed within the alignment of your eye with the scope.

    The next biggest thing I see (and was guilty of with long range shooting as a noob) was not trusting the instructor or my spotter's wind call/hold. It just doesn't make sense to you at first to aim off to the side of the target, even though the theory has been explained to you. Trust the spotter's wind call and hold exactly where they tell you to, or if shooting alone, trust your own wind call and see what happens. It's funny how I take kids who have never shot past 25yds and have them connecting on steel at 500-600yds first-round, because they don't know any better and just figure I knew what I was talking about when I told them how the reticle is incremented, and how to follow my wind calls, yet almost every adult man seems to always miss that first shot about as many mils as I told him to hold with the wind direction.

    Breathing control
    If your chest is inflated differently or changing shape as you break the shot, don't expect to hit what you're aiming at. With rear bags in the prone, we don't see too huge of a problem with this because the rifle is so insulated from normal human input. This usually means that breathing control and trigger control get neglected, especially with a super accurate rifle with a light trigger.

    Once you start shooting positions outside of the prone, breathing control is huge. You need to be calm and smooth, with a low resting/working heart rate. Your ability to mentally focus and process several things in quick succession will help out tremendously.

    Trigger Control I see this as if it was a rule-
    - Slapping the trigger
    - Off-centric trigger finger placement and force
    - Knee jerk off the trigger once the shot has broken (along with coming off the cheek weld and sight picture as if they will see something better well after Time of Flight outside of the optic.

    Solutions: Blend your calm, breathing and trigger control together in a sequence when executing the fundamentals. Sight picture and alignment with the TGT, Exhale and take up slack in the trigger simultaneously. Effortlessly feel the timing of the tiny icicle trigger break coincide with optimal placement of your reticle on the TGT.

    Follow Through
    This is a huge one because many people have never heard of follow through, and like to rip their head off the stock and out of the sight picture, for some reason not understood. Don't move when you break the tiny icicle trigger.

    Watch the shot fly true to your target or near it, and quickly see how many increments of measure you were off of POA. If it was a miss, use your reticle to quickly adjust your POA and make another shot if appropriate. Perfect follow-through is where nothing moves but the bullet and your action if a gasser.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com
  • Kilco
    Chieftain
    • Jan 2016
    • 1201

    #2
    Very solid info...

    I've never had the chance to attend a course.. my lesson learned as a young man and through the years has been in lost, or wounded game.

    Practicing like it's the "real deal", and learning from those who have more saddle time than myself is what shaped me into the shooter I am today.

    Guys will go to the range, fart around, wiggle and wobble and throw rounds downrage until they get it right, then pack up and go home content with finally making that hit. Not knocking guys just going to blast and have some fun, but I became obsessed with making the fastest most efficient and ethical shots on game possible, and I had to train my motor skills to behave predictably in unpredictable situations, lol.

    When your in the field, and you have walked all day, or even worse it late in the season and you have yet to bag your quarry, then that beautiful 10 pointer comes thundering into view, everyone knows how substantial that adrenaline dump is. I have been caught many time over the years not practicing the fundamentals at that critical time, and biff a great opportunity by violating the fundamentals of shooting. This caused me to start practicing like it's the real deal.



    These videos are one of the greatest video tutorials I've ever seen.. give then a watch folks.
    Last edited by Kilco; 08-18-2017, 02:04 AM.

    Comment

    • NugginFutz
      Chieftain
      • Aug 2013
      • 2622

      #3
      I can tell you, first hand, what he's saying is spot on, and well worth studying. I attended one of his DM courses a few years back, and saw the examples of each issue and what it did to the shooter's performance and confidence. I was fortunate enough to be paired with one of his sniper friends from Finland. I was all ears, listening to his tips and pointers. Fortunately for me, my equipment was well prepared (I'd paid very good attention to the pre-course information). Though the oldest participant in the course, and in spite of accidentally shooting the hostage I was to "rescue", I still managed to take 3rd in the culmination exercise. (Proof that youth and skill can be overcome by old age and treachery).
      If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

      Comment

      • Bowhntr6pt
        Warrior
        • Feb 2017
        • 168

        #4
        Most of the nuts n bolts have been covered so I'll just add a commentary...

        I was schooled years ago and still subscribe to it today that successful PR shooting requires belief in and the commitment to the idea of RIFLE, OPTIC, AMMO, SHOOTER. Each is a separate component where end performance is a culmination of the combined components. Overall performance will always he hampered by the "weak link" in the components.

        In my classes, many time I see people bring sub-standard rifles, optics, and ammo to class which hampers performance and attitude, which in the end, hampers skill building and learning (The Shooter).

        Like mentioned above, some come to class thinking they "got this" in reference to one or more of the aforementioned components. Many will respond "Well... this scope is just as good as.....", same with ammo and rifles. No... it is not "just as good as".... that's why it cost half of what you should have bought.

        Just about anyone shooting anything can get to the 500-600 yard mark with no issue... but for true extended range shooting, QUALITY components are a must to be consistently successful IMO. No... you don't need a $4K S&B scope.... but you're not going to get much done in the long run with a cheap scope.

        While reasonable cash outlay can address three of the four components, one must put in the time using and learning the limitations of their "system". You can acquire adequate gear but if you don't shoot often, your performance will suffer. You can shoot A LOT, but with sub-standard components, your performance will suffer. Successful PR shooting in my opinion requires the TOTAL PACKAGE approach.

        Comment

        • Klem
          Chieftain
          • Aug 2013
          • 3507

          #5
          Originally posted by Bowhntr6pt View Post
          Most of the nuts n bolts have been covered so I'll just add a commentary...

          I was schooled years ago and still subscribe to it today that successful PR shooting requires belief in and the commitment to the idea of RIFLE, OPTIC, AMMO, SHOOTER. Each is a separate component where end performance is a culmination of the combined components. Overall performance will always he hampered by the "weak link" in the components.

          In my classes, many time I see people bring sub-standard rifles, optics, and ammo to class which hampers performance and attitude, which in the end, hampers skill building and learning (The Shooter).

          Like mentioned above, some come to class thinking they "got this" in reference to one or more of the aforementioned components. Many will respond "Well... this scope is just as good as.....", same with ammo and rifles. No... it is not "just as good as".... that's why it cost half of what you should have bought.

          Just about anyone shooting anything can get to the 500-600 yard mark with no issue... but for true extended range shooting, QUALITY components are a must to be consistently successful IMO. No... you don't need a $4K S&B scope.... but you're not going to get much done in the long run with a cheap scope.

          While reasonable cash outlay can address three of the four components, one must put in the time using and learning the limitations of their "system". You can acquire adequate gear but if you don't shoot often, your performance will suffer. You can shoot A LOT, but with sub-standard components, your performance will suffer. Successful PR shooting in my opinion requires the TOTAL PACKAGE approach.

          As you are talking about the variables that put rounds on the target my understanding is the following;

          1. Rifle (includes scope).
          2. Ammo.
          3. Rest (what stabilises the gun to the ground; bags, bench, bipod, sticks, supported or unsupported?).
          4. Environment (wind, mirage, fog, rain, temp etc).
          5. Shooter.

          I agree, the weakest link in the combination of variables will influence the result. Like a team effort; 'you are only as fast as your slowest man'.

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            #6
            I was going to originally ask that only trainers and those who have at least 5-10 years of formal or competitive long range experience share their thoughts on the subject for the benefit of the forum, but don't want it to come off as elitist or exclusive.

            Looks like I miscalculated by not going with my original idea, so I have deleted some of the derail posts.

            If this is the thread that looks like a great place to make casual commentary or critique other forum members, it's not.

            I thought it would be good to have a technical discussion about common issues we see in long-range shooting and tips and techniques that can be used to bypass those issues.

            Let's keep it on track with the experienced members sharing what they've seen if they want, so that new entrants to the discipline can read and learn.

            Please keep any questions worded specific to issues you may be having and refrain from any type of commentary.

            The thread will be of more value that way, otherwise a new member or reader has to sift through a lot of noise to find the signal.

            I can tell you that Klem and Bowhntr6pt have a lot of long range experience that is well-heeded.

            LR1955 has been involved in long range precision rifle and service rifle shooting for decades, as well as having been the OIC for 1st Special Forces Group's SOTIC Committee, then spent many years running DM and Sniper training for the Stryker Brigade out of Fort Lewis after he retired.

            Bwaites has a lot of experience coaching and shooting long range as well over the years.

            One starts to see certain things as time goes on, and we all notice a lot of the same issues over scores and hundreds of courses collectively that indicate certain patterns. When you see that kind of repeatability, I think it's worth paying attention to.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • jonny rotton
              Warrior
              • Dec 2015
              • 358

              #7
              range estimation. most variable scopes need to be ranged at a set power (second focal plane scopes). you need to confirm that it works at that power. i discovered that my upper end ior scope was not accurate at the power setting for ranging and had to adjust (find) power to where it would accurately work.

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                #8
                Originally posted by jonny rotton View Post
                range estimation. most variable scopes need to be ranged at a set power (second focal plane scopes). you need to confirm that it works at that power. i discovered that my upper end ior scope was not accurate at the power setting for ranging and had to adjust (find) power to where it would accurately work.
                Range estimation is one of the most perishable skills there is, and not very accurate once you start getting past 400yds using a single reticle.

                On the military side, it was bread and butter for certain duty positions like FOs, Snipers, Scout Observers (Recon), Machinegunners, Assistant Machine Gunners, Weapons Squad Leaders, (talked about and practiced for regular infantry, tested in EIB), but not mastered by many.

                Laser Range Finders (LRFs) are seen as the easy solution but they have their technical and tactical limitations that make optical passive range estimation even more valid today. I noticed the Finnish Sniping community is really big on it still, even with many technical advancements available to them. In their case, countermeasures and the weather are the big considerations, as well as extreme temps where many batteries won't work anyway.

                The range estimation method I was taught in the US Army is basically worthless, takes too much time, has too many calculations and conversions from inches to metric, and isn't practical at all in the field. What I saw immediately from the Finns was a simple calculation that can be easily memorized and bracketed with your ranges. When they explained it to me, I looked at it and went, ".....Oh, why didn't I think of that?"

                I shared it with a buddy of mine who was a Sniper Instructor at a certain NATO training center in Germany after he got back to Bragg. His reputation is such that other units would send their guys to him before going to Sniper School, and he would spend his personal time doing their jobs training and prepping candidates for School before heading down there. I told him about the method, and he passed it on to some of these guys, and they passed their range estimation tests with flying colors first time, and were able to graduate without remedial testing. He also spent a lot of time with them on the other skill sets required in the course.

                I talked about this with another guy who is well known in the Sniping community, retired now out of SF, AMU, and other units, and he said that's the way (easy way) they learned it before SF even had a central formal sniping program when they were doing foreign exchange training with countries in Asia-Pacific region.

                As far as equipment goes, a FFP scope is definitely superior than a SFP scope for range estimation for that reason.

                For the layman, this comes down more to hunting if your LRF doesn't work. At that point, it's important to cut your practical effective range down I think because trajectory really starts needing some exact knowns as you get past 225yds with most rifles using a 200yd zero.

                For most matches in the US, you have a lot of KD ranges or ranges where everyone brings a LRF. It would be nice to see more competitions where passive range estimation is used.

                That all said, it isn't a common issue we see in the US on the civilian side because of the way ranges are set up.
                Last edited by LRRPF52; 08-19-2017, 12:44 AM.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

                Comment

                • LR1955
                  Super Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3355

                  #9
                  Guys:

                  Klem and Bowhntr have concisely presented the variables involved. Let me offer the following when it comes you guys putting out a lot of money for training. Just understand that my training style is very intuitive. I am not very dogmatic about things I don't think have any meaning. If a shooter / team meets the success criteria we have established for their goals, it doesn't matter how they communicated, got into position, what support was used, what finger was used to pull the trigger, what eye was dominant, etc. Success trumps all dogma and lessons learned.

                  First -- be certain that the course being offered meets your goals. I have read dozens of course outlines and they are all basically boiler plate with huge lists of tasks that you will do. Not necessarily do well, or become proficient with doing, or that meet your goals. Any course should have a clearly written end state or goal(s) that have achievable standards and that you know can be done within the time allotted. A sanity check is to see how many primary training objectives you will be expected to do in one day and how they will be evaluated for success. Generally speaking, in one training day of about 8 hours, a decent cadre can accomplish two major training objectives. With very experienced shooters who do not need coaching anymore, three. For a new shooter or team, they will be smoked after about four hours but a decent cadre can continue to get performance from them if they do the right things, for another couple hours.

                  Second -- ensure you are bringing the right gear to the course. LRRP52 is one of the very few I have seen who will tell you that you do not need a 1/2 minute blaster for his course because of the target sizes, mid range or closer distances, and his intent which is something more akin to tactical training for SDM's. So a 16" blaster that holds a minute at 600 is more than sufficient. When I run training I have some questions in the entry form. I ask about the experience level of the shooter / team, their equipment, ammo, optics (scope and spotting scope), and their goals. If I see something that I know will be a problem, I contact them and we go over the potential problem. Much stems from them not being able to articulate their goals so we end up working on that as well. So, it pays you to contact the instructor and go over your goals, and equipment to ensure you get the type of training you want and that your gear is capable of allowing you to meet your goals.

                  Third -- you really need to be in decent physical condition for many if not all marksmanship courses you will be paying for. I have seen people so obese that they can hardly fit into a shooting bench, let alone go prone or anything else. And for those who are in decent shape, if you are going from sea level to LRRP52's stuff in Utah, you best get there a couple days early to acclimatize.

                  Forth -- know how your optic works and what the increments of elevation and windage mean, and how the reticle works. This doesn't mean you read the instructions but rather you have thoroughly tested the optic out on a range. You can do this at a 100 yard distance easily using box drills and holds with the reticle pattern. You will not learn your optic unless you shoot bullets on paper at a known distance.

                  Fifth -- I have never seen anyone succeed unless their attention was focused on their shooting and the environment. This means their five senses were completely focused on very specific cues being taken in from their environment and that the shooter and observer were focused on one thing when the shot was taken. Very few courses emphasize the cues a team needs to take in and fewer emphasize where the attention of the shooter and observer need to be at various stages of the engagement. If you see these sorts of things in a course outline, it probably means a decent course will be presented.

                  Anyway -- those are some of my lessons learned.

                  LR1955

                  Comment

                  • LRRPF52
                    Super Moderator
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8569

                    #10
                    Yes, for my DM course, you'll have no problems hitting 18" plates at 600yds with a 1.5 minute carbine with a good load.

                    For the more Precision Rifle courses, I ask people to bring all the rifle they can that will run in the conditions.

                    Another approach I do as I have not had positive experiences in a traditional classroom setting is to send the classroom work out via email in advance, with homework for the attendees to study. I've been doing it for years, and within 2 weeks of the course start date, I ask for the homework with their answers provided to determine whether they have studied the material.

                    The last thing I want to do is stand around in a classroom and watch dudes go to sleep as I discuss angular measurements, trajectories, wind deflection, BCs, etc., so I tried both ways and maximized our actual range time as a result.

                    When I saw people who have paid hundreds of dollars for a 2-3 day course rolling their eyes back into their heads on morning one, drooling on themselves, I felt like we could be doing something better, so I went to the online in-advance approach. What I also do is bring a small dry erase board I can quickly prop-up on the range and cover any concepts that may need additional explaining, but I really feel the flat range is a great classroom.

                    You really see who has done their homework by testing in advance, because even if people are cramming at the last minute, they are at least researching and filling in the answers before showing up, and have to submit those answers to me to look over. I find that engaging them that way personally on their own time to look into the LR math, reticles, programs, etc. really seems to work better for me. Part of their independent study involves running their rifle's mv over a chrono and establishing a fine-tuned zero with the load they will be bringing.

                    They later have to answer some questions that require them to run that load through a ballistics program and determine their come ups and wind holds for different distances and conditions that I give out as problems like a written test in the pre-class study. Some examples:

                    1. With your rifle's load, 59˚ F temp, 6600ft elevation, and 22.7" barometric pressure, what are your scope click increments and wind holds for a 10mph full value at the following ranges:

                    300yds
                    450yds
                    575yds
                    600yds
                    800yds
                    1000yds

                    2. In your program, calculate your trajectory for 1000yds and look at the wind deflection. Does your program have 2 different numbers for left vs right wind if you enter wind direction. (90˚ vs 270˚)?
                    If it does or does not, why do you think that is?

                    3. You have a target at 600yds. The wind seems to be blowing diagonal to your position and the terrain as seen from above. What is your wind hold at 600yds in the given conditions from problem 1 and why?

                    4. You have just fired a shot at the 600yd target. You see dirt/dust kick up just off the left edge of the TGT, .1 mils, and you were holding into the wind from the right .5 mils for hopes of hitting the center of the TGT. You have 1 second to correct and make the next shot. How many mils into the wind will you hold for your fast follow-up and why?

                    5. From your original conditions, change your altitude and barometric pressure from 6600ft/22.7" hg barometric pressure to 2000ft elevation/27.8" hg, keeping the 45˚ F temp. Look at your previous 600yd drop data and now calculate for the new conditions. What were your drop/drift before and what are they now?

                    6. What is the weather forecast for the range we'll be at, and what specific data are you going to look for when analyzing it? Do local weather stations provide the data that will be usable for us, and if not, what equipment do you think you might want to consider that will provide that data?

                    These are more advanced questions towards the end of the independent study problems. I start out with very basic things like zeros, if 1 shooter's MOA = 1" at 100yds, what is 1 MOA at 600yds? Basic mils questions, specifics about their particular optics, a detailed instruction list on how to install and set-up their optics for solid zero that won't come loose in the mount/rings/bases, fundamentals, etc.

                    I don't like spoon-feeding people, as they learn so much better when they have to do the legwork themselves. The NRA has since adopted this approach as well.
                    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                    www.AR15buildbox.com

                    Comment

                    • kmon
                      Chieftain
                      • Feb 2015
                      • 2095

                      #11
                      In the Breathing comment consistency is key (very true) it is also important to breath to keep oxygenated, I see many shooters hold their breath too long which causes eyesight to start fading . Breath control is necessary but too many forget to breath

                      I shoot some out at 6 to 7 hundred yards but teach Archery to new shooters often and have that issue with breath control with most of them, just like a friend has with his long range classes
                      Last edited by kmon; 08-22-2017, 06:29 AM. Reason: edited trying to be clearer with the point

                      Comment

                      • LR1955
                        Super Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3355

                        #12
                        Originally posted by kmon View Post
                        In the Breathing comment consistency is key (very true) it is also important to breath to keep oxygenated, I see many shooters hold their breath too long which causes eyesight to start fading . Breath control is necessary but too many forget to breath

                        I shoot some out at 6 to 7 hundred yards but teach Archery to new shooters often and have that issue with breath control with most of them, just like a friend has with his long range classes
                        Km:

                        Very difficult to get someone to halt a shot and start over again. One thing that has worked for me was to simply re-assure the shooter that there comes a time when there is nothing else you can do but stop, re-group / fix something, and start again. Normally their position is screwed up and that is what is causing the whole thing. That assumes the shooter is in reasonably good physical condition.

                        LR55

                        Comment

                        • Bowhntr6pt
                          Warrior
                          • Feb 2017
                          • 168

                          #13
                          New shooters expect too much too fast. Performance anxiety... too worried about how they look or what other shooters think. Inhibits self-regulation and the discipline needed to stop mid-trigger and get situated so all aspects are as good as they can be... then take the shot.

                          I can't tell you how many times shooters took what I could tell was a bad shot only for the shooter to admit they hurried or took the shot fully aware of substandard conditions (conditions they can change/control).

                          Comment

                          • Klem
                            Chieftain
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 3507

                            #14
                            All good advice here so I have been reading quietly rather than contributing. I might add that the shot is a process that takes time. Position, Hold, Sight Alignment, Breathing, Shot, Follow-through. These are sequential steps of conscious checks, but they also overlap so if you oxygenate your system and breathe out 2/3 while coinciding trigger and something is not right then you only have a finite amount of dwell time to fix it and take the shot. Practise of course will help coincide your trigger with breathing.

                            We all know that shooting game is not as convenient as shooting paper. There may not be an opportunity to start the process again.

                            The next level of difficulty is trying to shoot in concert to an external command. Multiple shooters with a team leader who decides when multiple targets are in the best position to take the shot (like Double Naught's pig hunting). Either by radio or verbal command. Firing when you are ready is one thing. Firing and hitting what you are tracking when someone else tells you to fire is a lot more difficult than it sounds. Especially when other shooters are right next to you. You really have to find your bubble then.

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                            • LRRPF52
                              Super Moderator
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 8569

                              #15
                              Another seriously overlooked problem of the physical conditioning angle is dehydration.

                              Very few understand how to hydrate, let alone do it.

                              Your performance levels are night and day difference when you're properly hydrated.

                              No, bringing a Camelbak or water bottles to a course is not hydrated. It will help keep you topped off, but you need to be hydrated well before showing up.

                              It takes a long time to get your intracellular fluid hydrated so that your body's cells are optimally-swollen and shaped as intended in the design.

                              It's fairly easy to force-hydrate your extracellular fluid (fluid in between the cells), but not the interstitial/intracellular fluid.

                              The clarity of mind you obtain, along with energy levels is measurably different.

                              Sitting in the sun all day long getting beaten by the endless blast of UV and other radiation from that nuclear furnace is brutal on the human body.

                              Add to that the fact that you are now running multiple tasks with your mind and body, thinking in ways you don't normally think, trying to connect and develop neuropaths that were not there before, while getting abused by the radiation.

                              You watch people show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, then degrade into a depressed, lethargic demeanor, flushed red from the heat, barely able to function. Hydration, nutrition, plus good sleep can really help out with this. Sounds boring, not enough cool factor, but that is where I see the pros edge away from the aspiring. We see it big time in multi-day courses, or courses with very intense schedules.

                              Solution: Drink plenty of pure, clean water as part of your normal daily intake. If at sea level and sedentary lifestyle, drink half your body weight in ounces, so 200lb drinks 100oz per day. Not soda, juice, coffee, or alcohol, but water. For every 1000ft in elevation, you need to add a certain % of water due to air density and lack of O2. There are calculators online, but your easiest measuring stick is your urine color. Needs to be clear or mostly clear, not yellow or brown.

                              For every hour of moderate physical activity, you need to add at least 1.5-2.5 cups of water to your existing intake. At altitude, it gets pretty substantial when looking at how much water you need. When you are hydrated, you will have so much more energy available and ability to concentrate. Shooting really is about concentration, I've found.
                              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                              www.AR15buildbox.com

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