Sig MPX in 300 BLK -- is this the PDW that we have been seeking?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • n9nwo
    Bloodstained
    • Dec 2016
    • 93

    Sig MPX in 300 BLK -- is this the PDW that we have been seeking?

    What is the opinion of the Sig MPX Rattler in 300 BLK? The caliber does like shorter barrels and can reach out to at least 200m.

    Is this the combination that the military has sought for the PDW?



    Start here at the SIG SAUER Store online! Browse featured products, parts, accessories, sale items, back in stock and top sellers!


    Start here at the SIG SAUER Store online! Browse featured products, parts, accessories, sale items, back in stock and top sellers!
  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    #2
    Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
    What is the opinion of the Sig MPX Rattler in 300 BLK? The caliber does like shorter barrels and can reach out to at least 200m.

    Is this the combination that the military has sought for the PDW?
    It looks pretty close to what SOCOM is seeking for a PDW: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=0

    As for the Army or Marines, I don't recall seeing anything to indicate they're interested in either .300 BLK, or a PDW.

    Comment

    • n9nwo
      Bloodstained
      • Dec 2016
      • 93

      #3
      Originally posted by stanc View Post
      It looks pretty close to what SOCOM is seeking for a PDW: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportun...=core&_cview=0

      As for the Army or Marines, I don't recall seeing anything to indicate they're interested in either .300 BLK, or a PDW.
      Oh I think it is more of the armchair generals rather than anything.

      My question was whether the 300 BLK, in a short barrel, would meet the PDW standards.

      Comment

      • stanc
        Banned
        • Apr 2011
        • 3430

        #4
        Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
        Oh I think it is more of the armchair generals rather than anything.
        ??? I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that.

        Originally posted by n9nwo
        My question was whether the 300 BLK, in a short barrel, would meet the PDW standards.
        ??? Since SOCOM specified .300 BLK in the RFI for their PDW, clearly it meets their standards.
        Last edited by stanc; 08-25-2017, 12:55 AM.

        Comment

        • LRRPF52
          Super Moderator
          • Sep 2014
          • 8569

          #5
          Funny when you recognize the voice of the guy giving the mission brief.

          That pistol model with the brace looks interesting.

          MP5s have been filling this role for decades in SF, but are worn out, don't have common controls with the M4A1, and are anemic with 9mm.

          This is why SOCOM needs a new PDW. Russian have had several different modern PDWs emerge over the years, including ones that fire the 9x39 Subsonic cartridge.

          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

          www.AR15buildbox.com

          Comment

          • stanc
            Banned
            • Apr 2011
            • 3430

            #6
            Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
            Funny when you recognize the voice of the guy giving the mission brief.
            I don't recognize the voice. Who does it sound like to you?

            Originally posted by LRRPF52
            MP5s have been filling this role for decades in SF, but are worn out, don't have common controls with the M4A1, and are anemic with 9mm.
            This is why SOCOM needs a new PDW.
            Since the MP5 was typically used as an offensive weapon, "Personal Defense Weapon" seems like a somewhat erroneous classification.



            If the video is an example of how the new gun would be used, wouldn't it be a lot more accurate to call it a Covert Operations Weapon?
            Last edited by stanc; 08-27-2017, 03:37 PM.

            Comment

            • Lightning8
              Warrior
              • Jun 2015
              • 136

              #7
              I believe that a SIG MPX 9mm SBR with folding stock would fill the weapon needs for most of the support teams, armored crews, helo crews, etc. I carried a M16/M4 for decades and quickly picked up the "manual of arms" for my SIG MPX SBR. The "tip of the spear" warriors need battle rifles, etc. - the 9mm SBR could be a great solution for those that do not need a battle rifle as primary weapon. Anyone issued a pistol as primary weapon might be better served with a SIG MPX 9mm SBR.

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                #8
                Originally posted by stanc View Post
                I don't recognize the voice. Who does it sound like to you?


                Since the MP5 was typically used as an offensive weapon, "Personal Defense Weapon" seems like a somewhat erroneous classification.



                If the video is an example of how the new gun would be used, wouldn't it be a lot more accurate to call it a Covert Operations Weapon?
                Some units used them for offensive work until the 723s and 727s made it obsolete in that regard.

                Other units mainly used them for a few guys on a Team when doing SR (MP5SD3), and ADVON (MP5A3 and MP5K for some). In the ADVON role, it's a PDW all day long, not offensive. Same with SR. It's a compromise scenario option for discreetly taking out things before they get out of control. I'm talking personal experience here, not reading about some peripheral glimmer of a hint about practical application of them, with all the false assumptions that come with that.

                Since the MP5s are very worn, outdated, have cumbersome aiming solution mounting issues, and bad ergonomics, it makes sense that units are asking for something more up-to-date that shares commonality with AR15 ergonomics, magazines, firepower, while still retaining the suppressed and subsonic capability of the SD3.

                In the SiG video, they're showing a certain type of SR that requires a low profile, concealable system, with similar performance to an M4 within close ranges.

                The KAC PDW would be another one to look at, as they have made an AR15 mag-compatible version of it that was at SHOT a few years ago even.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

                Comment

                • Klem
                  Chieftain
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 3506

                  #9
                  Labelling a gun either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is the tail wagging the dog. It's just a gun - How you plan to use it lends itself to one or the other label at that time. We used the MP5's all day, every day, in all sorts of missions and frankly I don't care to label it one or the other. It's just an utterly reliable, accurate and ergonomically-sound 9mm SMG.

                  As for the Blackout, it's not as quiet subsonic as the MP5-SD. Burns three times the powder as a 9mm for no more killing power. The heavy 30cal bullets currently used in factory ammo are match bullets designed for higher velocities. They act like monoliths on hitting flesh. Every animal I have taken with a subsonic Blackout is a through-and-through (wasted energy). But, the Blackout does permit supersonic rounds and that is a big advantage in a PDW. If SIG makes a .223 version that would be worth a look.

                  Comment

                  • n9nwo
                    Bloodstained
                    • Dec 2016
                    • 93

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Klem View Post
                    Labelling a gun either 'defensive' or 'offensive' is the tail wagging the dog. It's just a gun - How you plan to use it lends itself to one or the other label at that time. We used the MP5's all day, every day, in all sorts of missions and frankly I don't care to label it one or the other. It's just an utterly reliable, accurate and ergonomically-sound 9mm SMG.

                    As for the Blackout, it's not as quiet subsonic as the MP5-SD. Burns three times the powder as a 9mm for no more killing power. The heavy 30cal bullets currently used in factory ammo are match bullets designed for higher velocities. They act like monoliths on hitting flesh. Every animal I have taken with a subsonic Blackout is a through-and-through (wasted energy). But, the Blackout does permit supersonic rounds and that is a big advantage in a PDW. If SIG makes a .223 version that would be worth a look.
                    The 300 BLM (7.62x45) seems to like shorter barrels where the 5.56x45 really needs a barrel longer than 14".

                    That is where the 300 BLK stands out is its love of shorter barrels.

                    Comment

                    • Klem
                      Chieftain
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 3506

                      #11
                      Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
                      The 300 BLM (7.62x45) seems to like shorter barrels where the 5.56x45 really needs a barrel longer than 14".

                      That is where the 300 BLK stands out is its love of shorter barrels.
                      The reason why Blackout 'seems to like' shorter barrels is because you don't get any more meaningful velocity out of barrels longer than 16". The pressure drops in a large 30cal barrel quickly. This is why manufacturers only sell 16" and shorter. Anything less than 16" however is just your normal less-velocity-per-inch.

                      A 10" barrel in 5.56 is long enough to be an effective, compact weapon. Below 10" and it arguably starts looking as effective as a 9mm SMG. Both have their roles but if you are looking for maximum effective stopping power in a compact rifle then 10-12" of 5.56 is powerful enough to 200M. Depends on your definition of compact of course and also depends on what you value more; compact or effective? More effective = less compact, More compact = less effective.
                      Last edited by Klem; 08-28-2017, 07:27 AM.

                      Comment

                      • LRRPF52
                        Super Moderator
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 8569

                        #12
                        Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
                        The 300 BLM (7.62x45) seems to like shorter barrels where the 5.56x45 really needs a barrel longer than 14".

                        That is where the 300 BLK stands out is its love of shorter barrels.
                        Not familiar with that cartridge.

                        There's a Czech 7.62x45.

                        300 AAC Blackout is 7.62x35. Maybe you meant that and had a double typo.

                        5.56 NATO does very well out of 11.5" barrels, and 10.5" with the right projectile.
                        NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                        CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                        6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                        www.AR15buildbox.com

                        Comment

                        • n9nwo
                          Bloodstained
                          • Dec 2016
                          • 93

                          #13
                          Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                          Not familiar with that cartridge.

                          There's a Czech 7.62x45.

                          300 AAC Blackout is 7.62x35. Maybe you meant that and had a double typo.

                          5.56 NATO does very well out of 11.5" barrels, and 10.5" with the right projectile.
                          The 300 Blackout (BLK) is a .30 caliber bullet in a .223 Rem case

                          The articles by one of the members of this group on PDWs has stated that the goal is to have a weapon that can hit out to 200m with a 5" barrel. Thus 9mm or any other current pistol round is not going to meet the standards.

                          Comment

                          • stanc
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 3430

                            #14
                            Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
                            The 300 Blackout (BLK) is a .30 caliber bullet in a .223 Rem case
                            Actually, it's a .30 caliber bullet in a .221 Fireball case.

                            Comment

                            • LRRPF52
                              Super Moderator
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 8569

                              #15
                              Originally posted by n9nwo View Post
                              The 300 Blackout (BLK) is a .30 caliber bullet in a .223 Rem case

                              The articles by one of the members of this group on PDWs has stated that the goal is to have a weapon that can hit out to 200m with a 5" barrel. Thus 9mm or any other current pistol round is not going to meet the standards.
                              I've been shooting it since it was 300 Whisper, way before AAC came along. I was pointing out that the cartridge you described as 300 BLM (7.62x45), is not one I've heard of before.

                              JD Jones of SSK introduced it a long, long time ago as the 300x221 Fireball. That's where I first saw mention of it, before getting some trigger time with it suppressed. There are people who have been working with the cartridge for many years before the latest generation of the cartridge.
                              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                              www.AR15buildbox.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X