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Thread: The Threat is Real, very real.

  1. #121
    Chieftain Klem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowaGrendel View Post
    You have an active shooter and you do nothing but allow him to kill.
    ....I will guess none of you ever served in Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iron sights are NOT useless at night.....To do nothing is the same as helping....I never said shooter did not have an advantage.....he obviously did....many of you like to twist what others post to suit your opinion.....The failure of LE in this situation is obvious in today's world.....and LE should at all times in todays world be ready for an active shooter for all such large events.....the past shootings should have dictated better security.....saying basically nothing could have been done is far from the truth....
    You might be right... You might be the only one with operational service on this forum...

    Like I said, set up a torso at 350metres and shoot at it with iron sights at night. Let us know how you went. You can't go shooting up a Las Vegas hotel like the military might do if someone engages them from a high rise building in some overseas war zone.

    I am going to bow out of this thread now but I will say I think you are being very ungracious to the LVPD. My impression is that they were very brave and did the best they could, under fire.
    Last edited by Klem; 10-11-2017 at 10:55 AM.

  2. #122
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    Twenty minutes sounds about accurate for police response time. What was he planning? He probably thought he had an escape plan. I really hope his escape plan didn't involve other people cooperating and those people were not government.

    The particulars may not matter so much. A society of people who hate each other will have these problems regardless of legislation and enforcement.

  3. #123
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    I know I'm taking this to an extreme, but, would things have been better if EVERY person in the crowd had an AR15 and everyone started firing back?
    Last edited by Keef; 10-10-2017 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Attempting to fix grammer.

  4. #124
    Bad things are going to happen. People will die. No law or police force or security protocol in the world is going to change that. They can lessen the severity and reduce the frequency sure, but never truly eliminate the problem. People will always try to kill other people. Humans have been doing that since time began.
    As a responsible person what you can do is own and carry the weapon that is most appropriate for your situation and skill level. You can train with your chosen weapon, be physically fit, train in other skills such as trauma medicine, high speed driving etc.. as practical for you personal situation. This will allow you to be able to respond effectively if or when you are in a life and death situation that requires one of these skill sets, mindset is very important too. People never rise to an occasion, they fall to their level of training.
    As for trying to second guess the police and security personnel's response to the situation, that's an age old issue as well. Of course, knowing all the facts, how things turned out, and with all the time in the world on a comfortable couch with no distractions, we could come up with things they could have done better or differently. But to not have been there on the ground and try to second guess the guys that were is unjust. What I know of the police response seems to indicate a pretty disciplined force. From the perspective of an officer on the ground at the concert, I would view my responsibility as the immediate area around me, whether I had a long gun or not. They would not have known if there were other things planned at ground level such as additional shooters in the crowd, or suicide bombers, or IEDs by the exits or any number of other threats. It would have also been a job just to keep the crowd from trampling people to death. Handling the situation at hand, and leaving the response at the hotel the SWAT team or other officers in a better position to respond seems like a pretty good choice to me, especially in the time given. In a crowd of 22k, with only a small percentage of people being hit, it would not be far fetched to think the shooter in the hotel might not be the most dangerous threat, if you thought something else might be in store. You can't have your entire force focused on one threat and all trying to respond to the same thing. In a gunfight, just because your team takes fire from the north, doesn't mean you abandon your sector of fire to the south and swing your .50 to the north. You maintain your sector and let the guys facing north deal with it, so that you don't get a nasty surprise.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowaGrendel View Post
    Iron sights useless at night ? lol........hardly, and it is not like you could not move to a better vantage point to see.....In almost any shooting the LEO's have to move to get an advantage to be able to stop a shooter.....
    I have used iron sights at night on many occasions. The ONLY time that were useful was when the target was well lit.

    Also, if the police were able to SEE where the shots were coming from, they should have known that THIRTY TWO floors is more than 100 yards up. Add to that the needed horizontal separation doubling the minimum range where one could see into the room and the result is that he was firing from well outside the range where a beat cop could do anything other than suppressing fire. That would have ut civilians and law enforcement in serious danger.

    The only way law enforcement could get a better firing position was the one they chose -- enter the building and "knock" on the door.

    The amazing thing is they did this within 15 or 21 minutes from the first shots being taken. I know that seemed like forever to some but was truly a lightning fast response.

    The Las Vegas Police department needs to be congratulated for having the training and policy that allowed their officers to respond so quickly and effectively.
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  6. #126

  7. #127
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    A long muzzle flash from someone emptying a 50 to 100 round magazine is a well lit target.......at least it was when I was trained to shoot at night.....any window lickers in rooms around the shooter would have moved quick if a round hit close, if they did not know enough to seek cover away from the windows to begin with, you can't fix stupid.....

  8. #128
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    I can tell you once the people in the concert realized they were being fired upon the 911 operators and telephone circuits wouldíve lit up like a christmas tree. All radio traffic on Public Safety frequencies would become very congested in a very short time.

    Many times the 911 operators get conflicting information from victims or witnesses. The shear panic of the people involved only adds to their inability to think clearly and become good witnesses and convey valuable information. It couldíve taken a couple of days for the Investigators reports to filter up the chain of command on the interview with wounded Security Officer.

    Many times in mass incidents you have to make a spread sheet to track all the different times and events. The individual Officers reports detailing their individual actions are also submitted. The individuals Officers reports with encountering the wounded Security Officer would be compared to the information gained by the followup Investigator. More than likely the followup Investigator or his/her Supervisor realized there was an error in the time line. This information has to be sent up the chain of Command and usually the Sheriff, Cheif and Lead FBI have to agree to either acknowledge the error and then decide whether the information needs to be disseminated to the public.

    The mountains of Officers reports, 911 telephonic and digital recordings plus recordings of Radio traffic all have to be saved and many times reviewed. The 24 hour news cycle requires numerous press briefings which only adds to the work load of the upper command or designated Public Information Officer or as in the Presidentís case Press Secretary. On a serious incident the Sheriff or Cheif feel compelled to publicly speak for the Agencies. Many times reporters do not like having to deal with a lower ranking Press Officer even though the information released will likely or should be the same.

    Under most PD use of force policey it would be very unlikely an Officer on the ground near the venue would have been authorized to use suppressive fire into a occupied hotel. Even if an Officer could clearly Identify the shooter the Officer has to weigh his personal ability to safely engage the target without significant risk to innocent people or other Officers.

    In years past and many locations today you have several different Law Enforcement Agencies working large events with surrounding jurisdictions. Itís hard to know who is responding that are good guys but you have no immediate or direct communications. All these factors can put doubt into an Officer mind as to the appropriate action. The active shooter training today has better prepared LE for these high stress deadly encounters but in my 35 years of law Enforcement I never once had access to stun grenades. In my rural area you were lucky to get Tactical/SWAT on scene in 45 minutes to an hour. Sure you get the closest Tac Officers first but it takes time to mobilize and coordinate.

    This will be a life changing event and will definitely be analyzed for many years or decades. Ten minutes of shooting can seem like an eternity but thank God it didnít go on for five or six hours (Austin Texas 1967).
    Last edited by VASCAR2; 10-11-2017 at 02:38 PM.

  9. #129
    Bump stocks are one thing, I really don't much care one way or the other about them. I will never have one and have no interest in them.

    BUT banning them won't really fix much, you don't need a bumpstock to bump fire an AR. Next guy does that and the next progression is to either ban the rifle or make it no longer semi auto.

    Now they are floating around a bill that would make it illegal to alter the rate off fire... with very vague wording. And that is what scares me.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85_Ranger4x4 View Post
    Bump stocks are one thing, I really don't much care one way or the other about them. I will never have one and have no interest in them.

    BUT banning them won't really fix much, you don't need a bumpstock to bump fire an AR. Next guy does that and the next progression is to either ban the rifle or make it no longer semi auto.

    Now they are floating around a bill that would make it illegal to alter the rate off fire... with very vague wording. And that is what scares me.
    You have stated the objective of the gun banners.

    They are interested in progressively banning all things gun related till there is nothing left to ban.

  11. #131
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    NRA has come out against DiFi's bump stock ban...

    http://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-opp...tock-ban-bill/
    LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
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  12. #132
    Warrior StoneHendge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BjornF16 View Post
    NRA has come out against DiFi's bump stock ban...

    http://freebeacon.com/issues/nra-opp...tock-ban-bill/
    That bill is a joke. All AR-15 parts are "aftermarket" parts. They could ban low mass bolt carriers with that language. And just imagine how the 9th circuit would interpret it.....
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  13. #133
    Bloodstained AZHTfreak's Avatar
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    Given Harvey's (& by extension, the rest of Hollyweird's) history of deviant perversions, I've written my esteemed rino senators McCain & Flake to author & introduce a bill for Common Sense Penis Control. Seems the perfect counterpoint to all the establishment DC blather about Common Sense Gun Control... Especially coming from these two.

  14. #134
    Warrior The Profit Joseph Sith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowaGrendel View Post
    You have an active shooter and you do nothing but allow him to kill.
    ....I will guess none of you ever served in Iraq or Afghanistan ? Iron sights are NOT useless at night.....To do nothing is the same as helping....I never said shooter did not have an advantage.....he obviously did....many of you like to twist what others post to suit your opinion.....The failure of LE in this situation is obvious in today's world.....and LE should at all times in todays world be ready for an active shooter for all such large events.....the past shootings should have dictated better security.....saying basically nothing could have been done is far from the truth....
    You might be right... You might be the only one with operational service on this forum...

    Klem:
    Like I said, set up a torso at 350metres and shoot at it with iron sights at night. Let us know how you went. You can't go shooting up a Las Vegas hotel like the military might do if someone engages them from a high rise building in some overseas war zone.

    I am going to bow out of this thread now but I will say I think you are being very ungracious to the LVPD. My impression is that they were very brave and did the best they could, under fire.

    Me: I partially agree with both of you. Every shooter has a different skill level. I would hope that the shooter would pretty much know what their limitations are and act responsibly and do their best. Many people with the best intentions often do more harm than good.
    I DO think there should be more ARMED LE at shows from now on. I would feel a helluva lot more safe if I knew there were a couple seat teams in overwatch putting thier skills to good use. And we should employ more if our highly trained service members into those roles. We have the technology.. I think it's time to adapt to the new threats and change tactics a bit. Maybe gunshot homing drones? With FLIR or thermal imaging.
    I'm no huge fan of taxes but I think that would be tax money well spent.

    I'm a firm believer they (the crims) should be alot more scared if us than us of them.

  15. #135
    Warrior The Profit Joseph Sith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZHTfreak View Post
    Given Harvey's (& by extension, the rest of Hollyweird's) history of deviant perversions, I've written my esteemed rino senators McCain & Flake to author & introduce a bill for Common Sense Penis Control. Seems the perfect counterpoint to all the establishment DC blather about Common Sense Gun Control... Especially coming from these two.
    Wasn't he one of the people attending the tail hook convention when someone like the secretary of defenses secretary was dragged in a hotel room and raped? My memory is hazy maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

  16. #136

  17. #137
    Warrior Texas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klem View Post
    True, but you cannot deny limiting civilian access to guns makes this sort of atrocity more difficult to commit. Also suggesting that if you do restrict guns then criminals will just find another way like a truck, and therefore it's pointless limiting guns in the first place is a non sequitur.

    Put yourselves in the shoes of the politicians who for the most part do not share our affinity for firearms. Charged with preventing these things politicians look at all the possible solutions and go with the easiest and least expensive options. Lock up all those known to be abled bodied yet have psychological problems, and related autism. Limit the influx of migrants with known inconsistencies with your way of life. Deny those with a criminal record, especially if it includes violence. Limit the tools available to commit efficient murder like guns... What is the cost of doing each of these and to what extent do we restrict each one. All those with mental illness or only those with violent tendencies? Do we restrict truck ownership or is the cost too high to society? All criminals forever or only those with violent crimes, or with records in the past ten years? For democracies that valorise individual freedoms tackling this problem necessarily comes at a cost. And like you say, there will always be some nutter who slips through the cracks and that is the harsh reality of firearm access. You want access to full auto weapons, well someone eventually will misuse their gun on full-auto. Semi-auto, someone will eventually misuse their gun on semi-auto. Restrict both and someone eventually will smuggle one in (although you have to admit restricting these at least mitigates the likelihood and lessens the damage if it occurs, if not eliminating it entirely).

    Sure, that guy could have used another means. They found a bag of ammonium nitrate at his house and also Tannerite. Unlikely that Tannerite can set off ANFO but with some effort he could access a detonator and booster from somewhere. Or just used a lot of Tannerite to propel shrapnel. He could have been in the Philippines with his Mrs when the thing went off and lived to fight another day (e.g. Margaret Thatcher, Brighton bombing in 1884. The IRA used a long timer). Heck, he could have rigged it to a mobile phone and rung it from overseas while watching the concert on Facebook. Instead he tied himself to the scene by using firearms and felt the need to commit suicide - A fruit cake that slipped through the very wide cracks.

    I am a responsible firearm aficionado and I don't want these murders to happen just like everyone else. I also prefer the Gov't not restrict my lifestyle so I will argue that I am prepared to put up with the risk for access to firearms. I hope everyone else in this democracy is ready to bear the risk also, for everyone's freedom, regardless if they want to exercise it or not. It's just the painful cost of freedom in a democracy.
    Klem, while you and I are singing out of the same hymnal, there is another issue which makes gun control almost a mute point. The availability of CAD/CAM systems and inexpencive CNC mills enables people to make their own lowers or registered parts without any legal trace whatsoever --- ala 80% lowers.

    Here is an event that happened this month in Tennessee, and you do not hear much about it because the weapons had no serial numbers.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/03...ffic-stop.html

  18. #138
    Warrior StoneHendge's Avatar
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    Texas, that is way too complicated. The Mexican cartels are drooling at the thought of gun control. Then they can have a monopoly on bringing AKs across the border.
    Kalifornicated Mindset

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  20. #140
    Warrior Texas's Avatar
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    Well this should be interesting since a belt loop and a thumb can be used to cause a semi-automatic to fire like a machine gun. I really want to see that definition.

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