The Threat is Real, very real.

[Texas]

Please forgive my naivete, but what is the difference between the rate of fire and convenience of use between a bump stock and firearm fitted to be full auto?

My impression is that the functionality is very mich the samefor the two types. That similarity creates a contradiction in the regulations if one is freely permitted and the other requires a long approval and tax process.

That might might the cause for the NRA request for an ATF review. The request also makes it seem tihat the NRA has some flexibiltiy.

I maintained a Class 10 Firearms license and manufactured legally M42, SBRs, M16s and M2s. We played with bump fire stocks when they first came out and determined rather quickly that they really did not serve a useful purpose other than burning up mass quantities of ammunition quickly. If you are not WELL trained in the use of a fully automatic weapon, then you will use the spray and pray method, which was used in Las Vegas. When you have 22,000 packed together, then as long as you can keep the rounds in the couple of acre area, then it can be effective. It would not suprise me for them to find out that the rounds which hit the fuel tanks will have some rounds in front of them between the target area and the fuel tank, ala muzzle rise.

My favorite M4 was a 10.5 inch SBR, and it would empty a 30 round magazine in about 2.6 seconds, and a 60 round magazine in about 5. Again if one is not WELL trained in most cases after the third round one is shooting at tree tops and buzzards.

The scenario used in Las Vegas was optimal for the weapon system he had.

On another note, I have heard that the assailant was a pilot and owned two aircraft of which one is a business jet/turboprop. If he wanted to maximize the carnage, he could have fueled the aircraft, taken off and declared an emergency. They would have given him the choice of runways. and on final he could have turned into the crowd which would have killed/injured significantly more.

[Klem]

On another note, I have heard that the assailant was a pilot and owned two aircraft of which one is a business jet/turboprop. If he wanted to maximize the carnage, he could have fueled the aircraft, taken off and declared an emergency. They would have given him the choice of runways. and on final he could have turned into the crowd which would have killed/injured significantly more.

Texas,

Now that is a damn good point!

You're absolutely right...it would have taken way less effort than what he did. Makes you wonder the mindset of the nutter and why this particular way to check-out was so important. A plane crash into a crowd is no less dramatic that's for sure.

[montana]

I'd say the difference you are pointing out is only relevant if someone wants to access full-auto legally. Paddock could have purchased full-auto parts legally and just been careful about having them lying around in case of 'Constructive intent'. Bought a drill press and removed some meat in the lower and drilled a hole for the auto sear. You can buy jigs for the hole or just measure the spot and do it manually.

Or, he can take the path of least resistance and buy a bump stock legally and practise using it to make it work. Both ways don't involve any contact with the authorities.

As for all the other arguments here...You all know I am a gun owner and because of that I am selfish in my own want to own and use guns. I am not overly worried if someone opposes my suggestion that some restriction is good for the rest of society because it will affect me as well. Where I come from in the southern hemisphere the population all seems to agree in gun restriction, including gun owners. Talk to any gun owner and they all strongly agree there should be some checks and balances for the greater good. Here there is no right to have firearms, only privileges. Our culture is less defined by the individual imperative to have the means to protect your family, less individualistic and with less emphasis on individual entitlement. We have never had a civil war and so while sometimes people groan about being over-governed there is less community suspicion of the government. Not saying it is a better culture but just different. I have legal access the guns I want in a society that restricts them so it's not the end of the world, just the bottom of the world....

I'm a little taken aback with your opinion of owning firearms as being selfish or an entitlement. This is definitely a difference in our cultures.
Every place I have purchased full auto parts I have been asked for a copy of my NFA tax stamp. It is illegal to own full auto parts without a registered firearm to put them in. There are laws already on the books against modifying a firearm into full auto and they are quite severe. Nobody is against keeping firearm out of the wrong hands but even the military and police has had it's share of kooks misuse their firearms, even after their vetting. We have many checks and balances for the greater good LOL. We don't have entitlements with firearms,"perish the thought" but as much legal right as the authorities to be armed, sadly this is becoming less and less with these idiotic gun bans proposed by a warped change in the intent of our Second Amendment by corrupt politicians and their uneducated supporters. If people don't like this law it can be changed through the amendment process but they have side stepped it,"knowing full well it would not pass" by changing the meaning and the intent. A full auto is described by law as a firearm which will shoot more than one round with a single pull of the trigger. The bump fire stock fires only one time per pull of the trigger. They have been able to ban other firearms and shot guns stating it has no sporting purposes which has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd Amend. I understand why the NRA is doing what they are doing for political reasons but I completely disagree with it. It is a never ending battle keeping our Constitutional rights and compromising on them is poor strategy.

[Drillboss]

This may have been answered, but I'll ask anyway.

Does a bump fire stock allow a shooter to empty a magazine any faster than simply pulling the trigger? I'm asking because I don't know.

Either way, this guy probably wasn't aiming and firing, he was only dumping rounds into the crowd.

[montana]

This may have been answered, but I'll ask anyway.

Does a bump fire stock allow a shooter to empty a magazine any faster than simply pulling the trigger? I'm asking because I don't know.

Either way, this guy probably wasn't aiming and firing, he was only dumping rounds into the crowd.

Not if you are Jerry Miculek and he is very accurate unlike the bump fire stock. Perhaps they will ban his finger!

[Drillboss]

Not if your Jerry Miculek and he hits what he is aiming at. Perhaps they will ban his finger!

I was going to include Jerry in my post, but this guy seemed to be just shooting into a mass of people. I shot at the top, right of a flock of dove once and killed one in the the lower left. The bird boy was still impressed.

[stanc]

This may have been answered, but I'll ask anyway.
Does a bump fire stock allow a shooter to empty a magazine any faster than simply pulling the trigger?

See for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7GkBT1Gew

[stanc]

Please forgive my naivete, but what is the difference between the rate of fire and convenience of use between a bump stock and firearm fitted to be full auto?

Insignificant difference. Compare this full-auto to the bump-fire in post #97 above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFXj1gyEghQ

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

I've been asked about three times over the last several days my reaction to this shooting. My reply is always the same. "Thank God he didn't use a truck."

(http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ss-murder-risk)

[StoneHendge]

I maintained a Class 10 Firearms license and manufactured legally M42, SBRs, M16s and M2s. We played with bump fire stocks when they first came out and determined rather quickly that they really did not serve a useful purpose other than burning up mass quantities of ammunition quickly. If you are not WELL trained in the use of a fully automatic weapon, then you will use the spray and pray method, which was used in Las Vegas. When you have 22,000 packed together, then as long as you can keep the rounds in the couple of acre area, then it can be effective. It would not suprise me for them to find out that the rounds which hit the fuel tanks will have some rounds in front of them between the target area and the fuel tank, ala muzzle rise.

My favorite M4 was a 10.5 inch SBR, and it would empty a 30 round magazine in about 2.6 seconds, and a 60 round magazine in about 5. Again if one is not WELL trained in most cases after the third round one is shooting at tree tops and buzzards.

The scenario used in Las Vegas was optimal for the weapon system he had.

On another note, I have heard that the assailant was a pilot and owned two aircraft of which one is a business jet/turboprop. If he wanted to maximize the carnage, he could have fueled the aircraft, taken off and declared an emergency. They would have given him the choice of runways. and on final he could have turned into the crowd which would have killed/injured significantly more.

Give Alex Jones a call first thing in the morning!

[Drillboss]

See for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm7GkBT1Gew

I'm not arguing because I don't know. I've never used a bump stock and I've never tried to unload a mag at max rate using semi-auto. The sound from the tapes of the event sounded somewhat slower than the rate heard in your video.

I'm just wondering if the shooter could have done as much damage firing semi-auto as he did with the bump stocks.

[Texas]

??????

[HowaGrendel]

what happened yesterday should be used as a reason we need our 2a rights

It is because when you least expect it you could be involved in the same situation......would a handgun of mattered in this situation ? probably not, but this shooting was a very rare type of incident, in thousands of other incidents a handgun has saved the day....even more reason to protect and keep the 2nd Amendment...

[HowaGrendel]

Well, lots of people in Nevada with guns. They didn't stop the shooting. How come? None of the visitors to the hotel grabbed their guns and ran to the 32nd floor and kicked in the door and engaged the shooter. Local residents didn't retrieve rifles from their vehicles, load them, and engage the shooter. Residents didn't fire at the shooter from their homes. The shooter was not engaged by people from other hotels or buildings in the area, parking garages, etc.

I can't think of any venue such as a concert that is going to allow guns and I don't see Jimmy or Janie concealed carry whipping out their Kel-Tec P32 or Glock 27 and firing 350 yards up 32 floors at a hotel to engage the shooter without any sort of real risk of killing non-combatants on other floors. If anything, this sounds like one of the worst sort of examples to claim this is why we need our 2a rights. We do need more of them, no doubt, but nothing would have changed in this situation. Plenty of folks already have guns in NV and in Las Vegas, so a change in our rights would not have changed this situation. If what happened yesterday should be used as a reason why we need our 2a rights (bearing in mind the SC court has ruled they are not absolute already), please explain how yesterday would have been changed if they were in place.

While on the notion of reality of urban combatics, let's also keep in mind that the vast majority of people with permits to carry don't carry on a regular basis, or people who have the right to carry in permitless states don't carry despite not requiring a permit to do so. Far too many people who already can carry simply do not do so, be it a pistol on their person or a long gun in their vehicle (and in some cases, long guns in public). This goes way beyond just more of our 2nd amendment rights, but full scale attitude changes in people about taking an active role in their personal security and the security of others, which if you screw up, can subject you to significant civil and potentially criminal ramifications in most states.

How many shootings happen and someone armed is close by ? and does not act ? no way of knowing, I would bet a lot....Just because you have a gun does not mean you jump into the middle of something and end up dead...name one guy with a wife and kids who would have rushed shooters room ? would you have ? no.....what person carrying a gun in that hotel would have ? No way of knowing how many shooters were in the room, if door was booby-trapped......even LE or Military would not tried to charge through the door.....they would have set charges on the door, blew it, tossed in several flash bangs and gas before even thinking about entering....Seems odd that no LE who are usually at this big events and now mostly carry AR15's or similar locked in trunk never fired any rounds ? Surely at least one LE car had a rifle of some sort ? and tell me how many guns are in California ? How come the shootings in California were not stopped by people in California ? or any state ? Guns are in every state and how many shooting get stopped ? You can't compare 2A Rights to any shooting, 2A Rights give someone, anyone at least a chance to save themselves or others....You nor anyone else will ever for see the situation where you may need or use a gun, or what kind of gun would be best....

[danm]

The question is, who was shooting the M240 Bravo???