If one was bored and had the motivation - Moscow Match

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  • Sticks
    Chieftain
    • Dec 2016
    • 1922

    If one was bored and had the motivation - Moscow Match

    ****EDITED WITH RESULTS BELOW*****
    Given the random nature of Wolf steel case ammo (bullet weight, charge weight), coupled with an over abundance of steel case ammo on hand, would it be worth it to pull down the ammo, cull out the bullets by weight, and tune up the cartridge? Match powder charge using the same powder that was pulled?

    I'd go as far as to find the average bullet weight and trim as needed the heavier ones to match.

    Between the 250 rounds that I ordered, plus what I have acquired from Buy/Sell/Trade, I have a spooky amount that I am leery of running through my Barlitien barrel for the sake of shooting it.

    3 MOA even out of a dirt clod shooter is unacceptable by my standards. My 16" ML 5.56 has ammo tuned to keep it sub MOA with homebrew M193.

    ************************************************** ************************************************** **********************************************

    OK. Final Results and not what I was expecting...at all.
    Rifle is a PF Neptune VIII, 18" Barlitien, PF Super Match NiB BCG, Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP MRAD. PSA lower, Magpul PRS, Geiselle SSA-E,.

    65* ambient and ammo, 4700' ASL.

    Shots taken prone, bipod, bags in the rear.

    I have some skill...some. I have a long way to go.



    As listed on target. Wolf is Factory Steel Case ammo blind. Clean bore, cold.
    Series 2 Shots: 5
    Min 2542 Max 2575
    Avg 2562 S-D 12.3
    ES 33
    Series Shot Speed
    2 1 2542 ft/s
    2 2 2566 ft/s
    2 3 2575 ft/s
    2 4 2564 ft/s
    2 5 2567 ft/s
    ELD - Hornady Black Factory 123gr ELD
    Series 3 Shots: 5
    Min 2460 Max 2491
    Avg 2472 S-D 12.5
    ES 31
    Series Shot Speed
    3 1 2491 ft/s
    3 2 2460 ft/s
    3 3 2474 ft/s
    3 4 2461 ft/s
    3 5 2474 ft/s
    Wolf Reload. Here is where I was hoping the groups would tighten up with match powder weights, neck sized and OEM pill pushed back in to a 2.261 COAL. Not pretty at all.
    Series 4 Shots: 10
    Min 2530 Max 2588
    Avg 2565 S-D 19.1
    ES 58
    Series Shot Speed
    4 1 2530 ft/s
    4 2 2540 ft/s
    4 3 2561 ft/s
    4 4 2569 ft/s
    4 5 2588 ft/s
    4 6 2578 ft/s
    4 7 2563 ft/s
    4 8 2581 ft/s
    4 9 2562 ft/s
    4 10 2586 ft/s
    ELD1 is Wolf Case & primer, Wolf Powder (28.2gr), and Hornady 123gr ELD stuffed back in at 2.261 COAL.

    This is the third time in my life I have shot a single hole. Wish to hell I knew what I did right. I guess this is what could be called an accuracy node. Too bad the velocity sucks.

    Series 5 Shots: 5
    Min 2433 Max 2453
    Avg 2443 S-D 9.2
    ES 20
    Series Shot Speed
    5 1 2452 ft/s
    5 2 2435 ft/s
    5 3 2433 ft/s
    5 4 2453 ft/s
    5 5 2443 ft/s

    ELD 2 is 28.5gr
    Series 6 Shots: 5
    Min 2423 Max 2466
    Avg 2444 S-D 16.9
    ES 43
    Series Shot Speed
    6 1 2423 ft/s
    6 2 2466 ft/s
    6 3 2456 ft/s
    6 4 2435 ft/s
    6 5 2444 ft/s
    ********Continued in Post #3*******

    ETA -
    Originally posted by HuntTXhogs View Post
    Originally posted by HuntTXhogs View Post
    Thank you HuntTxhogs for your testing and posting results.
    Last edited by Sticks; 03-04-2020, 10:17 AM. Reason: Updated with results
    Sticks

    Catchy sig line here.
  • joedirt199
    Warrior
    • Jul 2015
    • 121

    #2
    The bullet diameter of the wolf ammo is also .002 less than the bore to help contribute to the accuracy problems. Don't know that there is much to be helped when the bullet barely hits the lands

    Comment

    • Sticks
      Chieftain
      • Dec 2016
      • 1922

      #3

      ELD3 28.8gr
      Series 7 Shots: 5
      Min 2458 Max 2497
      Avg 2478 S-D 15.5
      ES 39
      Series Shot Speed
      7 1 2458 ft/s
      7 2 2497 ft/s
      7 3 2490 ft/s
      7 4 2478 ft/s
      7 5 2470 ft/s
      ELD4 29.1gr
      Series 8 Shots: 5
      Min 2502 Max 2532
      Avg 2518 S-D 13
      ES 30
      Series Shot Speed
      8 1 2502 ft/s
      8 2 2518 ft/s
      8 3 2531 ft/s
      8 4 2510 ft/s
      8 5 2532 ft/s
      ELD5 29.4gr, This is the velocity that I would like to see safely.
      Series 9 Shots: 5
      Min 2531 Max 2550
      Avg 2541 S-D 7
      ES 19
      Series Shot Speed
      9 1 2550 ft/s
      9 2 2543 ft/s
      9 3 2538 ft/s
      9 4 2531 ft/s
      9 5 2543 ft/s
      ELD6 29.7gr. Here is where I quit. Sounded bad, felt bad (recoil) and the cases were starting to show flattened and cratered primers, and a little ejector marking on the case.

      Case pic below
      Series 10 Shots: 5
      Min 2536 Max 2553
      Avg 2543 S-D 7.3
      ES 17
      Series Shot Speed
      10 1 2536 ft/s
      10 2 2540 ft/s
      10 3 2553 ft/s
      10 4 2550 ft/s
      10 5 2540 ft/s
      Here is the cases, left to right in order of load group.


      In conclusion. Yes. If one had the time and was motivated, this is absolutely worth it. Especially for a lost brass match, tournament, or hunting situation. I still have concerns about the inconsistent neck tension without running an expander before neck sizing, but damn...that first group of ELD... Even keeping the rest of the loads sub MOA until the pressure peaked.

      So what says the Horde?
      Last edited by Sticks; 10-08-2017, 04:19 PM.
      Sticks

      Catchy sig line here.

      Comment

      • bj139
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2017
        • 1968

        #4
        rickt300
        Warrior

        Join Date
        Jan 2017
        Posts
        136

        "Just happened to have a 0-1 inch mike on my bench today so I thought I would check the diameter of the Wolf 100 grain bullet and it comes to .2623 for three. the Hornady 129 grain bullet is .2641. This could be the reason for poor accuracy."

        Posted in another thread.

        Comment

        • 1911man
          Warrior
          • May 2015
          • 482

          #5
          So maybe one would benefit from pulling the crappy worth bullet and replacing it with a match bullet of the same weight? I realize this isnt really that cost effective but if your bored. A few years back when you couldnt get certain powders and primers I started doing this with my .308 bolt gun with good success. Bought Monarch steel ammo from Academy, pulled the bullet and replaced it with a 155 amax and had sub MOA accuracy and the ability to hunt with it for about .25 less per round than buying premium ammo. At the end of the day you can get boxed ELD at a pretty darn good price right now though.

          Comment

          • Sticks
            Chieftain
            • Dec 2016
            • 1922

            #6
            I may keep my eye out for a sale on a high BC bullet and try that with 100 or so.
            Sticks

            Catchy sig line here.

            Comment

            • LR1955
              Super Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 3355

              #7
              Originally posted by Sticks View Post
              I may keep my eye out for a sale on a high BC bullet and try that with 100 or so.
              Sticks:

              I have not tried pull push with steel cased ammo but with brass, just pull out the poor quality bullet and seat a bullet of the same or lighter weight. If I were you, my decision on a new bullet would not be based on BC but on price. I can almost guarantee you that a bullet of the proper diameter will shoot better than an undersized bullet. Also, at least the Wolf MPT had an anemic load so you won't get any advantage from a more expensive but higher BC bullet because it won't shoot far enough, fast enough.

              I would go with something like one of the various Sierra Varminter flat base bullets. I bet they will do very well to 200 yards and they are pretty inexpensive.

              LR55

              Comment

              • Sticks
                Chieftain
                • Dec 2016
                • 1922

                #8
                The plan was to pull down and start with empty cases, and re-weigh all the powder (ladder loads to start with) then use up all the powder that was "recycled". Hence the desire for an inexpensive high BC bullet to use as either lost brass match, or serious practice, since the Wolf pill is undersized and likely various weight.
                Sticks

                Catchy sig line here.

                Comment

                • bj139
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 1968

                  #9
                  I was trying to see if I could size some hard cast .329 bullets to .309 through a Lee bullet sizing die. It was a no go, but after trying it in the .309 die, I tried it again in the .329 sizing die and it required some effort to push it through. The bullet had increased in diameter from the pressure. Maybe your pulled bullets and creative use of a reloading press could turn your .262 bullets into .264 bullets.

                  Comment

                  • Troutguide
                    Warrior
                    • Jan 2017
                    • 380

                    #10
                    LR55 that sounds like a good plan for cheap hog hunting rounds. If I was wanting match ammo I can't imagine it is really worth it to reload steel cased from scratch unless like above there was a shortage of materials and all you had was your stockpile.

                    Lots of good ideas here for the cheap Wolf. For me Grendel Wolf ammo was a major consideration when buying the gun, "poor" accuracy or not it will still hit what I need it to at 100 yards and it is good practice puling the trigger. Now options to improve the wolf accuracy for actual hunting use is a real plus.

                    TG
                    "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

                    Comment

                    • Kswhitetails
                      Chieftain
                      • Oct 2016
                      • 1914

                      #11
                      I have some 120 scenars I bought on sale a couple weeks back, I'd be willing to ship at cost to help get test results. I think .26/per? Something like that. Anyway, I like the idea of good bullets in wolf cases. If my math is right, and you can get the pills cheap, you'd be somewhere in the 50-65 cents per round, plus time and effort. If one could successfully create steel match for that kind of money, I'm interested and I'd bet lots of other guys are too. Was this Bill A's design, or did Wolf get tired of quality assurance on the bullet production lines?

                      Too bad the wolf projos are so much smaller than bore diameter. It's hard to even practice with them knowing that. Do they even reflect your real skills at that point? Even on rapid steel at 75-100yds, there are a percentage of hits you'd actually make with average brass cased ammo you blow out and miss with undersized pills... Sure, I know they'd be edge dings. Ugh, .23c/per is so hard to pass up. Meh, now I know the why of how its so cheap, and it makes my thinking about the steel stuff irrelevant. I guess if you're just out blasting for fun...

                      Hey Sticks, hurry up and make some cheap accurate wolf would you?
                      Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                      Comment

                      • Kswhitetails
                        Chieftain
                        • Oct 2016
                        • 1914

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Troutguide View Post
                        LR55 that sounds like a good plan for cheap hog hunting rounds. If I was wanting match ammo I can't imagine it is really worth it to reload steel cased from scratch unless like above there was a shortage of materials and all you had was your stockpile.

                        Lots of good ideas here for the cheap Wolf. For me Grendel Wolf ammo was a major consideration when buying the gun, "poor" accuracy or not it will still hit what I need it to at 100 yards and it is good practice puling the trigger. Now options to improve the wolf accuracy for actual hunting use is a real plus.

                        TG
                        Basically, you're buying new cases, primers, and powder to your door for .23/per delivered, or thereabouts. Thats what I can get it for. Add your projectile cost. No trimming, no sizing, no seating primers. Just pull, expand, seat, crimp and go. 60-75c per. To me, it seems worth some effort and testing to get a round capable of sub moa at 500 or more. I'd buy that kind of match ammo all day long at that price. Hornady or Wolf need to get this going, or someone else will.

                        I like how you think. True enough, for bench practice with position, trigger discipline, breathing, mechanics - Wolf MC is amazing. As long as your gongs are at least 6 inches...

                        And yes, gentlemen, she does measure.
                        Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                        Comment

                        • Troutguide
                          Warrior
                          • Jan 2017
                          • 380

                          #13
                          I wonder why they are using the undersize pill, can't be a cost savings unless there is an extra step to make the neck fit, more problems with oversized pills than under? Seems like an easy fix for a manufacturer to provide a superior product. Possibly they want to sell more expensive brass cased ammo, but volume should trump margin unless they are getting the brass cases for the same price as steel and they are just creaming the market and getting much higher margins on brass.
                          "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

                          Comment

                          • Sticks
                            Chieftain
                            • Dec 2016
                            • 1922

                            #14
                            I have 500 ELD that was destined for once fired Hornady. Not sure that I want to Guinea pig those, knowing what they do out of factory ammo. But..if Kswhitetails is willing to donate some Lapua pills at shipping cost, that is tempting for me to man up and use some ELD.

                            Not even sure I would have to size and crimp the neck if they are already undersized. Probably just pull, charge, seat, bang.
                            Sticks

                            Catchy sig line here.

                            Comment

                            • Kswhitetails
                              Chieftain
                              • Oct 2016
                              • 1914

                              #15
                              OH I'm here buddy. Let me know. Math says just under .28 cents per. I can count and send tomorrow.
                              Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                              Comment

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