If one was bored and had the motivation - Moscow Match

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    #16
    Originally posted by Sticks View Post
    The plan was to pull down and start with empty cases, and re-weigh all the powder (ladder loads to start with) then use up all the powder that was "recycled". Hence the desire for an inexpensive high BC bullet to use as either lost brass match, or serious practice, since the Wolf pill is undersized and likely various weight.
    Sticks:

    Ok. Let me advise that you determine if the powder is all of the same lot. I advise this because you said you got the ammo from a number of different sources. Not that I think it would be dangerous unless your ladder tests went way over what ever the charge is in the factory case. Only that it may give you problems with consistency.

    Something I never did with any issued NATO ammo that I pull / pushed was to re-charge with more powder than the original case contained. Military powders work well in a pretty narrow range of charges. Go too light and all you get is poor results. Go too heavy and you get into serious pressures and problems very quickly. Not sure if the Wolf stuff follows the same principals but I have much less faith in Russian or Serbian powders than I do with any Western made powders.

    LR55

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    • 1911man
      Warrior
      • May 2015
      • 482

      #17
      I would be very careful to pull a 100 grain bullet and replace it with a 120 grain bullet. There is going to be a significant pressure difference in the 20 extra grains of bullet weight.

      Comment

      • Kswhitetails
        Chieftain
        • Oct 2016
        • 1914

        #18
        Originally posted by Sticks View Post
        The plan was to pull down and start with empty cases, and re-weigh all the powder (ladder loads to start with) then use up all the powder that was "recycled". Hence the desire for an inexpensive high BC bullet to use as either lost brass match, or serious practice, since the Wolf pill is undersized and likely various weight.
        I believe the additional 20 grains in the bullet weight are covered under the "(ladder loads to start with)" comment. Agreed though, safety first!
        Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

        Comment

        • Sticks
          Chieftain
          • Dec 2016
          • 1922

          #19
          I don't know if Wolf samps their ammo with the lot number. I was surprised to find that Femeral American Eagle does not.

          I will be keeping an eye on the appearance of the powder from box to box. Given the sub standard bullet, it would not surprise me to find various different powders- leftovers tossed in that vat, or what ever was cheapest.

          I got in all my 65G reloading parts in yesterday, so hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll have some test results.

          Rifle match this weekend in Raton, then back to 6 day work weeks.
          Sticks

          Catchy sig line here.

          Comment

          • m796rider
            Warrior
            • Jul 2011
            • 398

            #20
            I'm very tempted to try this with Hornady 100gr ELDs... By my rough math I'd end up at $.60 per round, or thereabouts, which is what the 120gr MPTs used to cost. I already have a sh*t ton of Wolf steel, so I'd just buy a box of 100 ELDs for a few bucks to start.

            The huge draw for me is how easy it is just to pull the old bullet and seat a new one, no case prep. And, I don't have to look for brass when I'm done shooting.

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            • DJL2
              Bloodstained
              • Aug 2017
              • 57

              #21
              This might be my lack of knowledge showing - if you're worried about different powders AND you're going to work up a charge ladder anyway...is there a way to blend the powder to improve consistency and mitigate risk associated with different burn rates, etc?

              The only thing I've ever reloaded is 6.5x55mm - so, it's not like I have a wealth of experience here.

              Comment

              • just_john
                Chieftain
                • Sep 2012
                • 1565

                #22
                Back in the '60's / '70's, some of us would pick up 30-06AP and just swap out the bullet for 150gr Sierras SP's. Made for very cheap ammo and gave us near ( or occasionally better than ) MOA results.

                Comment

                • LR1955
                  Super Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3355

                  #23
                  Originally posted by DJL2 View Post
                  This might be my lack of knowledge showing - if you're worried about different powders AND you're going to work up a charge ladder anyway...is there a way to blend the powder to improve consistency and mitigate risk associated with different burn rates, etc?

                  The only thing I've ever reloaded is 6.5x55mm - so, it's not like I have a wealth of experience here.
                  DJ:

                  Mixing powders has always been considered very dangerous. I wouldn't do it with smokeless powders under any circumstance. Not worth any theoretical advantage.

                  LR55

                  Comment

                  • Sticks
                    Chieftain
                    • Dec 2016
                    • 1922

                    #24
                    Well, the stuff I have is the same bullet diameter. .261 and 119.5gr. Lot of pills going in the trash.
                    Sticks

                    Catchy sig line here.

                    Comment

                    • Sticks
                      Chieftain
                      • Dec 2016
                      • 1922

                      #25
                      I have not forgotten about this. Got all my stuff in, and now I am at the end of the current project I am working on, which means a 7 day work week (trying to meet a deadline for this phase).

                      I got to thinking, if the wolf bullets are undersized, I will have to neck size out to the correct ID. I don't know that I want to try to stuff a .264 pill down a hole that is .262. I have to take some measurements, and hope I still have a couple fired Wolf case laying around. If it does not scrape off the jacket (how much is a steel case going to damage a neck sizing bushing die?), it may be too tight on the neck tension and give me erroneous pressure signs...which is another fun thing, how does one check for pressure signs on steel cases?

                      Just looking at primer only?

                      Better a long jump to the lands, or a short jump?
                      Sticks

                      Catchy sig line here.

                      Comment

                      • DJL2
                        Bloodstained
                        • Aug 2017
                        • 57

                        #26
                        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                        DJ:

                        Mixing powders has always been considered very dangerous. I wouldn't do it with smokeless powders under any circumstance. Not worth any theoretical advantage.

                        LR55
                        Got it. The more I thought about it, the more concerned I became about the "how" of it. How would you ensure universal blending/distribution? How would you ensure that the powder then subsequently metered proportionally for each individual round? I couldn't come up with an answer for either. Effectively, you'd go from several powders of somewhat known/discoverable quality to one big crap shoot. There would never be a way to reliably determine the exact blend for the grains flowing into the casing currently being loaded, as I see it. It's not like mixing gas at the pump for 87 Octane...which is what originally got me thinking about it.

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                          I have not forgotten about this. Got all my stuff in, and now I am at the end of the current project I am working on, which means a 7 day work week (trying to meet a deadline for this phase).

                          I got to thinking, if the wolf bullets are undersized, I will have to neck size out to the correct ID. I don't know that I want to try to stuff a .264 pill down a hole that is .262. I have to take some measurements, and hope I still have a couple fired Wolf case laying around. If it does not scrape off the jacket (how much is a steel case going to damage a neck sizing bushing die?), it may be too tight on the neck tension and give me erroneous pressure signs...which is another fun thing, how does one check for pressure signs on steel cases?

                          Just looking at primer only?

                          Better a long jump to the lands, or a short jump?
                          Sticks:

                          Might as well try a couple. Pull the Wolf bullet and throw it away. I would not go with neck sizing or dumping powder. I probably would go with de burring tool and remove any roughness from the necks before seating the new bullet. Seat a bullet of your choice that weighs around 110 grains or lighter. If you go with one of the flat base bullets like a Sierra Varminter, seat it deeply enough in the case so the neck supports the shank of the bullet. The OAL with these bullets will be very short.

                          I would make up three or four and see if the process will work. Then I would decide on shooting them or not. I am pretty convinced they will be just fine.

                          LR55

                          Comment

                          • bj139
                            Chieftain
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 1968

                            #28
                            Did anyone here check for runout of the bullets on a sample of Wolf steel ammo?

                            I pulled one bullet and measured it with a 1" micrometer to be just under 0.263" or about 0.2628.

                            Sierra 85 and 100gr HPs measured just under 0.264"or about 0.2638".

                            The 129gr blems from Midway measured just over 0.264", about 0.2642".

                            I don't know if .001" is enough to account for the inaccuracy of the ammo.

                            The bullet must be pulled to measure the widest part.

                            I suppose pulling the bullets and reseating them in brass cases and firing would answer the question, "Is it the bullet or the steel case"?
                            Last edited by bj139; 09-12-2017, 01:50 PM.

                            Comment

                            • bj139
                              Chieftain
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 1968

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Troutguide View Post
                              I wonder why they are using the undersize pill, can't be a cost savings unless there is an extra step to make the neck fit, more problems with oversized pills than under? Seems like an easy fix for a manufacturer to provide a superior product. Possibly they want to sell more expensive brass cased ammo, but volume should trump margin unless they are getting the brass cases for the same price as steel and they are just creaming the market and getting much higher margins on brass.
                              It is much safer to be undersized than over sized. There are manufacturing tolerances that they have to deal with. It would be worse with steel jacketed bullets since copper is more malleable.

                              Comment

                              • bj139
                                Chieftain
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 1968

                                #30
                                A quick search lead me to this. Down further in the article they mention 2 inaccurate rifles which required less than 5 ft/lbs to break the barrel nut loose.
                                Should a bit of Loctite be used on the receiver threads? I recently bedded a barrel in Loctite and on removal the nut was not tight. I had prviously tightened it to 40 ft/lbs.
                                With grease on the threads it would encourage loosening.



                                After reading this article, it confirmed what I had thought. Wolf ammo is suitable for smoothing the bore of a new rack grade barrel but long term use causes significant barrel wear.

                                Another article.
                                Last edited by bj139; 09-12-2017, 03:01 PM.

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