Form 1 SBR questions

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  • Kswhitetails
    Chieftain
    • Oct 2016
    • 1914

    Form 1 SBR questions

    So, there was an extra 12" Faxon from the GB left over, and I spoke up for it, and it is on it's way home. Here are my questions:

    1) I plan to pistol the short barrel for now until funds and approvals allow me to SBR it. Thus, I need to know if I am legal to own both a pistol AR and a rifle AR at the same time, or if I need to shelve the barrel until approvals are in. Can I have a short upper on a pistol lower at the range with a rifle upper and lower? Can I have the short upper in my safe with my rifle lower even if they are currently part of two different completed pistol/rifle systems? Is it still legal as a pistol if I have a rifle next to it since potentially you could swap the uppers and have a completed SBR? I don't intend to build the SBR until approval, but appearances can be tricky. What are the dangers I need to be aware of here?

    2) I already have my form 4 pending for my suppressor, if I put the suppressor on the SBR (when the time comes) do I need to declare on the form 1 that the SBR will be used in conjunction with the suppressor, or does it matter? The suppressor would be "temporary" to the SBR anyway so my gut says no, but this the big GOV we're dis-cussing...

    3) What do I need to read to understand the recent opinions and letters originating from the BATFE regarding their stance on shouldering pistol braces?

    Thanks guys, my interest is doing this right from the start, rather than improvising as I go.
    Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.
  • Bigs28
    Chieftain
    • Feb 2016
    • 1786

    #2
    Yes you can have a pistol ar and rifle ar.

    According to sb tactical, their pistol brace can be shouldered as they submitted it to batfe for approval and received it.

    SB Tactical BATFE Letter: Reversal of Opinion on Use. We design, develop and manufacture accessories for firearms including the original pistol stabilization brace.

    Comment

    • Troutguide
      Warrior
      • Jan 2017
      • 380

      #3
      Are you doing illegal things that might raise suspicion and cause a search warrant into your home. Are you going to use the weapons in any illegal way? Have you ever had, or do you ever expect in the future that, an ATF agent will be looking in your safe to determine if your postol and rifle are mating? Do you have a web cam setup showing said mating for pay? If not just build your pistol, keep it a pistol, and don't flaunt shouldering the weapon beyond simply shooting it and otherwise keep your nose clean. If I have someone in my house inspecting my weapons I probably have bigger concerns than if they think I might be conspiring to switch uppers. I also own a maglite but don't figure it will spontaneously eat a bunch of freeze plugs while I am away.

      Edit:
      Last edited by Troutguide; 09-26-2017, 05:00 PM.
      "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

      Comment

      • Kswhitetails
        Chieftain
        • Oct 2016
        • 1914

        #4
        Trout - point taken. Agreed. But, ignorance is no excuse. There are few real resources for good, accurate answers, unless you wish to reveal more to the BATFs than I want (am forced) to. Probably by design.

        I don't "skirt" around the edges well. That's a skill I never learned. I don't play politician well either. I want to find out the "what's whats" and do them.
        Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

        Comment

        • mongoosesnipe
          Chieftain
          • May 2012
          • 1142

          #5
          i am not a lawyer but to my understanding as fallows

          1) your concern is with constructive possession, you "should" be fine as long as the pistol upper has a pistol lower to attach to until your form 1 clears that said

          Constructive Possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at a given time to exercise dominion and control over an object, either directly or through others. US v. Turnbough, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 11886, *6. The government may establish constructive possession by demonstrating that the defendant exercised ownership, dominion or control over the premises in which the contraband is concealed. Id.

          constructive possession is grey as heck intentionally i think as long as you have paperwork in to sbr it it would show you intend to fallow the law but it really falls to how zealous the prosecutor is in your area in theory anyone who possesses a rifle and a hack saw are in constructive possession..... basically make sure you have a lower which is registered as a pistol and has a pistol only bufffer tube on it

          2) naw your fine on that suppressor and sbr are 2 stamps independent of each other

          3) back to the grey..... based on my under standing its not legal but they are not pursuing prosecution at this time

          so yeah if you want to be completely safe store the short barrel off site until you have sbr stamp
          Punctuation is for the weak....

          Comment

          • Kswhitetails
            Chieftain
            • Oct 2016
            • 1914

            #6
            Grey and I are enemies. Know that guy Murphy? He wrote a law about the way the world works. He is my Uncle. And I am definitely a genetic marker inheritor for Murphy's disease...

            If there are places where it is clearly stated that it is legal to own both a pistol and a rifle together without an approved form 1, then I'm golden.

            If I am not breaking the law, there is no reason for me to fear. Same argument to be made for those who currently want to blame others for why they "fear' the police...

            My FIL has an AR10, but no 15, and no intention of owning one. So, I can just have the barrel there until approval if it comes to it. No skin off my nose...
            Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

            Comment

            • Troutguide
              Warrior
              • Jan 2017
              • 380

              #7
              What Mongoose said. I built my 12" as a pistol and would not have ordered it without a fresh lower to put it on for a pistol build. I read everything I could to be safe so I understand where your coming from. As long as you show no intent to build an illegal weapon I believe you are safe. This is indeed a gray area with only vague letters to act as law. All we can do is try our best to comply and stay out of the spotlight. What I wouldn't do is have an ar rifle stock/buffer in the house with a completed pistol and rifle.
              Last edited by Troutguide; 09-26-2017, 03:06 PM.
              "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

              Comment

              • Kswhitetails
                Chieftain
                • Oct 2016
                • 1914

                #8
                So, tell me more about a "registered" pistol lower. I can't use the extra lower I have lying around and put a pistol tube on it? My ignorance is showing!
                Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                Comment

                • Troutguide
                  Warrior
                  • Jan 2017
                  • 380

                  #9
                  Not "registered", your lower should have been received to you as "Other" and as long as you never built a rifle out of it first it should be fine to build into a pistol. That's why it's best not to have spare rifle parts laying around.
                  "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

                  Comment

                  • Kswhitetails
                    Chieftain
                    • Oct 2016
                    • 1914

                    #10
                    So if I recieved a lower as a rifle lower, but have scavenged parts for other projects/builds and it now sits as a stripped lower it is a no go? Hmmm. good thing lowers are cheap right now...
                    Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                    Comment

                    • Troutguide
                      Warrior
                      • Jan 2017
                      • 380

                      #11
                      Yes to the best of my knowledge it is a no go for that lower. It might be worth a call to your FFL to ask if it would make a difference if you received a new lower designated as a pistol instead of other. I have been led to believe that it makes no difference as long as you first build as a pistol. I would personally get a cheap lower build my pistol and move all other spare parts to FIL's house and register the unused rifle lower as the SBR then swap upper to it once papers arrive . The lowers would always be considered pistol and rifle no gray.
                      Last edited by Troutguide; 09-26-2017, 03:27 PM.
                      "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

                      Comment

                      • Kswhitetails
                        Chieftain
                        • Oct 2016
                        • 1914

                        #12
                        Good call. My thoughts align actually. PSA may wrangle more dollars from me on the next stripped lower deal they offer. So, question, can I turn the pistol lower into a rifle with no ill ramifications later? Any reason to maintain a pistol lower after the SBR is approved?
                        Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

                        Comment

                        • Troutguide
                          Warrior
                          • Jan 2017
                          • 380

                          #13
                          The way I understand it is if you first build a pistol it can be converted to a rifle later as long as you don't make an SBR(change the short barrel out first) at any point then you are fine and can actually convert it back to a pistol later. How to confirm this process is hard to say.

                          This might help:


                          Recently a client contacted me to ask whether the addition of a carbine buffer tube to an AR pistol build would somehow transform the pistol into a short barreled rifle (SBR). This question illustrates just how much confusion there is … Continue reading →
                          Last edited by Troutguide; 09-26-2017, 05:03 PM.
                          "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

                          Comment

                          • mongoosesnipe
                            Chieftain
                            • May 2012
                            • 1142

                            #14
                            in order to be a "pistol" the pistol box has to be checked on the 4473 then you are good to go the problem isnt exactly new its kind of been around since the 60s with the thompson contender if it is purchased as a pistol you can make it into a rifle if it is purchased as a rifle you cant make it into a pistol ever the most recent case of constructive possesion i have seen was a guy getting popped for selling a hk sp89 (civilian mp5k pistol) with a folding stock not attached with it

                            if they were really out to get people on constructive possession nearly everyone who has owned a contender would be guilty and on that platform the order in which you assemble your gun could momentarily get you into trouble how a 14" single shot pistol barrel with stock attached is more dangerous than a 16" barrel in the same configuration or how 14" pistol with scope is less evil than any other configuration is not for us sheep to decide.... just because a law is stupid doesn't make it not a law and ignorance to the law is not a valid defense

                            there are also a bunch of weird rules about the "pistol" configuration concerning the placement of your second hand (you can't have a second grip mounted to the gun)

                            you could also pin and weld a break/flash hider/extension to your 12" barrel to be at 16" as measured by putting rod down the barrel to the breach and when your sbr paper work finishes a year from now grind the weld off the break and rock and roll with your bad self and forget all the pistol nonsense
                            Punctuation is for the weak....

                            Comment

                            • explorecaves
                              Warrior
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 284

                              #15
                              Originally posted by mongoosesnipe View Post
                              in order to be a "pistol" the pistol box has to be checked on the 4473 then you are good to go the problem isnt exactly new its kind of been around since the 60s with the thompson contender if it is purchased as a pistol you can make it into a rifle if it is purchased as a rifle you cant make it into a pistol ever the most recent case of constructive possesion i have seen was a guy getting popped for selling a hk sp89 (civilian mp5k pistol) with a folding stock not attached with it

                              if they were really out to get people on constructive possession nearly everyone who has owned a contender would be guilty and on that platform the order in which you assemble your gun could momentarily get you into trouble how a 14" single shot pistol barrel with stock attached is more dangerous than a 16" barrel in the same configuration or how 14" pistol with scope is less evil than any other configuration is not for us sheep to decide.... just because a law is stupid doesn't make it not a law and ignorance to the law is not a valid defense

                              there are also a bunch of weird rules about the "pistol" configuration concerning the placement of your second hand (you can't have a second grip mounted to the gun)

                              you could also pin and weld a break/flash hider/extension to your 12" barrel to be at 16" as measured by putting rod down the barrel to the breach and when your sbr paper work finishes a year from now grind the weld off the break and rock and roll with your bad self and forget all the pistol nonsense
                              ^This with the clarification of the second grip.... an angled foregrip is acceptable, a vertical is not. Also, if the lower was purchased as a stripped lower, then you are golden as long as it was assembled as a pistol first. From there you are free to go back and forth according to historical precedence. If it was assembled as a rifle first, then you are hosed and have to register as an sbr.

                              Pistol lowers are cheap and plentiful at this point so there is really no reason not to have one in your safe.
                              Last edited by explorecaves; 09-26-2017, 07:10 PM.

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