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Thread: .224 Valkyrie? Future competitor to the 6.5 Grendel?

  1. #21
    Chieftain Kilco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneHendge View Post
    Just read the review again and it seems that the 90 gr VLD going 2700 was pulled out of thin air. No comment whatsoever in the article as to where that number came from. Just a number in a chart. Not saying it's not possible, but debate is pointless until there's actual real world data.

    But Federal must smell blood in the water with Nosler's stupid design. There's obviously a market (and a high end one at that) as I keep seeing more barrel makers get into 22 Nosler. Looks like Rainier will now sell you several different configurations in their ultra match line for 500 clams.

    I think the most telling sign of the problems with 22 Nosler is that 9 months after introduction, not a single powder manufacturer has put out any load data. Nor has anyone else put their name on the stupid rebated rimmed brass.
    Really is too bad...

    My brother, like you has mixed feelings with his Odin Works 22 Nos. With 2520 is one of the most accurate gas guns I've seen... I mean constant 1/2" from the bench..

    But the brass... oh the brass..

  2. #22
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    Stonehenge,
    And that is assuming that a 90gr VLD will shoot loaded to magazine length.

    The pic shown representing the Valkyrie is not a VLD, it looks like a Sierra MK, there is a big difference in the BC's for each bullet, eg Berger 90vld = .560bc, 90gr SMK = .504bc.

    I have played with the 90vld and it is a finicky bullet to get shooting properly. It is very sensitive to barrel twist, seating depth and powder charge.

    Examples 1-7tw .223 26in barrel gets around 2600fps, would not shoot accurately above that speed in that barrel.

    28in 1-6.5tw would net around 2840fps and sensitive to seating depth, shot like a laser when it was on, the amount of testing getting to that combination was interesting.

    My point is, the tester cherrypicked the best numbers and threw them out there. If only going by the numbers, it looks like a good cartridge, but for what.

    SY

  3. #23
    Warrior StoneHendge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhangel5 View Post
    Stonehenge,
    And that is assuming that a 90gr VLD will shoot loaded to magazine length.

    The pic shown representing the Valkyrie is not a VLD, it looks like a Sierra MK, there is a big difference in the BC's for each bullet, eg Berger 90vld = .560bc, 90gr SMK = .504bc.

    I have played with the 90vld and it is a finicky bullet to get shooting properly. It is very sensitive to barrel twist, seating depth and powder charge.

    Examples 1-7tw .223 26in barrel gets around 2600fps, would not shoot accurately above that speed in that barrel.

    28in 1-6.5tw would net around 2840fps and sensitive to seating depth, shot like a laser when it was on, the amount of testing getting to that combination was interesting.

    My point is, the tester cherrypicked the best numbers and threw them out there. If only going by the numbers, it looks like a good cartridge, but for what.

    SY
    Long range target shooting, but like I said above, spotting hits at range is difficult with any 224. The other use I see in my parts is for varminting during big game season. In CO, you're not allowed to hunt big game with 224 caliber. but you're not allowed to hunt varmints with anything larger than 224 during a big game rifle season. How's that for a stupid law - we think you're going to poach if you're out in the field with something larger than 224 and you say you're just looking for yotes - but we won't worry about you shooting an elk with a 223 because anyone stupid enough to poach can't be stupid enough to shoot an elk with 223...... Then of course there are the people like us who build it because we can! And with more barrel makers getting into the 22 Nosler game, someone must be buying them. But I've been there/done that and personally no longer see the point given how cheap it is to shoot 223.

    Kilco, what sort of SDs is your bro getting? Mine have really widened. I'm of the belief that I have case heads that are bent but not identifiable
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  4. #24

    Oh, no they di'nt!!

    Federal just released their YouTube video for the 224 Valkyrie.

    And, yes, they WENT THERE!

    Claimed it was the "best MSR 15 round ever".

    Oh, no they di'nt! Them thar's fightin' werdz!

    Remember, the Horde was there first with short and fat and sleek and long.

    Seriously, cool round. Check it out.
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  5. #25
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    How about a 17 Valkyrie with a 120 g bullet for maximum BC.

    Pennsylvania allows any centerfire cartridge for deer so such powerhouses like the 22 Hornet and 17 Fireball are allowed.

    Semi-autos are still not allowed for deer hunting but are allowed for small game but only 22 cal or less so no 6.5 Grendel ARs except for pests.
    Last edited by bj139; 10-17-2017 at 12:05 AM.

  6. #26
    Warrior Texas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NugginFutz View Post
    I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.

    I also noticed his BC for the 90 gr VLD was significantly higher than Berger's own posted G7 of 0.274, so I ran with the corrected BC.

    Next, I chose a tried and true 123 Scenar for the Grendel. It is a solid choice for VLD comparisons.

    Lastly, I updated the 77 grain from the SMK to Berger's Tactical/OTM, with an improved .192 G7 BC. Because the Wylde was simply the same projectile running 50 fps slower than the 22 Nosler, I omitted it entirely as being redundant.

    I kept all the velocities as previously posted, and ran the numbers using the Applied Ballistics engine with standard atmospheric and temperature values. With the playing field now evened, the results are somewhat different.



    Attachment 9925Attachment 9924Attachment 9923Attachment 9922

    Even still, the Valkyrie does maintain a slight edge on drop and windage, but never gets close for retained energy at any distance.
    Thank you for your work, intuitively, your numbers seem more realistic.

  7. #27
    Warrior StoneHendge's Avatar
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    They claim the "first ever" MSR-15 224 bullet to be supersonic at 1300 yards. Been there, done that (out of an 18").
    May God bless anyone who has the misfortune of entering Aero Precision's "customer service" system. For it is truly a hell hole. Upon my fourth entrance, they have unfortunately joined the ranks of companies I will no longer do business with.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
    Federal just released their YouTube video for the 224 Valkyrie.

    And, yes, they WENT THERE!

    Claimed it was the "best MSR 15 round ever".

    Oh, no they di'nt! Them thar's fightin' werdz!

    Remember, the Horde was there first with short and fat and sleek and long.

    Seriously, cool round. Check it out.
    The next video in the lineup on Youtube was Mark LaRue on the 224 Valkyrie.

    The user comments on the video are a little disturbing. I don't know what to think.

  9. #29
    Warrior Sticks's Avatar
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    A quick run with the numbers presuming 3000fps MV (stays out of trans sonic at 1300), compared to my MV on my 18"....gives a person pause.

    1000 .224 90gr

    Drop MIL-7.5 Drop In-25.9 Wind MIL 1.9 Wind in 6.7 Velocity 1552.9 Energy 481.9

    1000 6.5 95gr
    -12.5 -42.9 4.0 13.9 1001.8 211.7
    Even with 123gr ELD...no comparison. The Valkyrie out does it.

    As always, once you get set up, someone comes out with something better.

    I see this as an awesome LR target and steel round.

    We'll see what happens in the next year, and what kind of $$$ a body is looking at for ammo and reloading.
    Sticks

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  10. #30
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    The muzzle velocity numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The 22 Nosler does not get 3000 fps from even a 77 gr bullet per their load data page: https://load-data.nosler.com/nosler-...osler-77gr.pdf
    Last edited by JASmith; 10-17-2017 at 06:54 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASmith View Post
    The muzpzle velocity numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The 22 Nosler does not get 3000 fps from even a 77 gr bullet per their load data page: https://load-data.nosler.com/nosler-...osler-77gr.pdf
    More powder behind that Valkyrie round I'll bet.

    The 3k FPS, I did not play with the numbers much, just hit something that kept it close to trans sonic at 1300 - per their advert. for super sonic at 1300. I'll bet it's close.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #32
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    Sticks,

    Could you go to 17 Valkyrie and get even more improvement from a 95 grain bullet?

    There must be other problems with a bullet that long in 22 cal, I think.

  13. #33
    A .224 90gr SMK or 90gr Berger VLD is a legit bullet. No question. But the SMK BC used in the advertising (0.563) can't be accurate because it's better than Berger's BC (0.534), and the SMK is not sleeker than the VLD. So there's that.

    Second, guys have been necking up and down the 68SPC case (just like they've been doing to the 65G case) within hours of it first coming out. Seriously, many versions of the 224V have existed for years, and there is a body of data already. We could do some Googling to kind of get a baseline to set our expectations more realistically.

    The only interesting thing about this is that a major manufacturer, Federal, is involved. And, on its merits, it seems a well-designed round because they, correctly, shortened the case a bit and, correctly, used a long, high BC bullet.

    For myself, if I HAD to have 90gr .224 bullets in an intermediate case, I'd go with Whitley's 224AR because I already have 65G bolts and mags, and because I think the 65G case is even better suited to getting the most velocity from long 90gr .224 bullets at 2.260-2.300 mag lengths.
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  14. #34
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    Thanks for commenting on this BFT.

    When someone says 224 Valkyrie is better than 6.5 Grendel I guess I get offended.

    I still think that 6.5 Grendel occupies the sweet spot in a long range and hunting cartridge with lower recoil. No one really likes recoil.

    I used to think that of a lightly loaded 6.5x55 before the Grendel existed.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by bj139 View Post
    When someone says 224 Valkyrie is better than 6.5 Grendel I guess I get offended.
    Me too, but I try to be objective. Number One Rule of new cartridge introductions is Never Believe the Hype. We learned THAT with the whole 6.8 SPC roll-out (hyped at 2800 fps with a 115gr in a 16" bbl, and assuredly the next U.S. military small arms cartridge).

    Anyway, being objective, 224 Valkyrie is a very savvy design. We've already talked about its correct use of short/fat, long/sleek principles. Win. Big win!

    Consider also practical manufacturing aspects:

    1. Probably uses widely available .224 1:7 twist barrel blanks. Win. (I think these are enough to stabilize 90-grainers.)

    U P D A T E : Using Berger's Twist Rate Calculator, their .224 90gr VLD at 2700fps in a 1:7 twist in worst-case scenarios (sea level in zero-degree temps) has "marginal stability" and is losing 9% BC.

    2. Uses widely available 6.8 SPC bolts and magazines. Win.

    3. Not only can it load the very best 90gr .224 long-range projectiles at mag length, it also can use the wide array of other .224 bullets — the very many 77-grainers, for example — with less intrusion into the powder column than .223 Rem cases for velocity gains. Win.

    I'm gonna hafta tentatively declare this my SECOND favorite factory AR cartridge. I probably will never actually get one — cuz we still haven't done super sleek all-copper 90-grainers in the 6.5 Grendel! — but it would be the only other factory AR cartridge I'd consider.

    P.S. Number 4. Cool name. Win!
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    More powder behind that Valkyrie round I'll bet.

    The 3k FPS, I did not play with the numbers much, just hit something that kept it close to trans sonic at 1300 - per their advert. for super sonic at 1300. I'll bet it's close.
    The 22 Nosler has slightly more powder capacity and should run at about the same pressures, unless I got confused about body diameters.
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  17. #37
    Warrior StoneHendge's Avatar
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    Unless someone is really good at photoshop.....

    IMG_3548.jpg


    It actually had me thinking for a bit, but then I asked why when you can push 105 grains out of a 6mm Grendel at similar or better velocities with nearly the same BC and 20% more mass and sectional density.....

    And then there's the question of Federal brass. Okay, its not going to be as bad as 22 Nosler brass which isn't worthy of being melted down and stamped into switch plates in a Chinese factory to be sold at WalMart, but it is about as soft as it can get.....
    May God bless anyone who has the misfortune of entering Aero Precision's "customer service" system. For it is truly a hell hole. Upon my fourth entrance, they have unfortunately joined the ranks of companies I will no longer do business with.

  18. #38
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    Are we supposed to ignore the velocity call out in the image StoneHendge posted?

    BTW That velocity seems about right for the powder volume and pressure.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JASmith View Post
    Are we supposed to ignore the velocity call out in the image StoneHendge posted?
    Rule 1: Never believe cartridge introduction hype. Guilty until proven innocent — or independently verified — as the case may be.

    But, yes, velocity of 2700fps seems right for a 20" or 24" barrel. They don't say, but usually they use a 24"?

    I can't prove it, but I dispute the 90 SMK BC of 0.563.
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  20. #40
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    Distrust but verify? LOL.

    A buddy of mine called me about this, before I read the thread and did some checking. I told him 'no way in hell were they getting that sort of performance,' but the numbers work if the numbers are true. Might be a fun round.

    Yeah, but I don't think I will be an early adopter. If it is genuine and good, it will be around for next Christmas.
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