.224 Valkyrie? Future competitor to the 6.5 Grendel?

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  • StoneHendge
    Chieftain
    • May 2016
    • 2009

    #16
    What sneaky one said. I've pretty much given up on 22 Nosler due to the stupid rebated case head and super craptastic brass (I culled about 20% out of a lot of 250'that literally had bent rims from excess dwell time and bolt thrust after the first firing). The remaining 200 went through a second loading and about a third of them have primer pockets that are so loose that even Harvey Weinstein would think twice about them.

    But regardless, spotting any 22 cal hits out past 600 yards becomes a difficult task. Not a lot of lead to splash and we all know "energy" is bs when it comes to smacking steel. Given a choice between a 240 gr 44 special plodding along at 750 fps with 300 ft lbs of energy or a 115 gr 9mm at 1180 and 355 ft lbs of energy and one shot to knock down a self resetting target, we all know what we're going to grab.

    My 22 Nosler has worked its way to the back corner of my safe. If I didn't have such a absurdly accurate barrel, I'd probably give up on it. But I still have some brass and a stash of 1500 55 gr NBT Varmints that I picked up from Wideners last winter when they were litterly blowing them out the door (I think they were 14 cents a piece), so I'll load them up warm and shoot out my barrel doing what it was designed for - pushing lighter bullets fast.

    And that will be the end of my foray with anything other than 223/556 in the caliber. I went 7 for 10 on 1k with 223 during a very calm period today (blemished (!!) 77 gr NCC at 2835 out of my 24" that cost about a quarter to make). What I do with the rest of that build remains to be seen, but if it's 224 caliber, I doubt it will be anything other than 223.
    Let's go Brandon!

    Comment

    • ahillock
      Warrior
      • Jan 2016
      • 339

      #17
      Originally posted by Arkhangel5 View Post
      I am trying to see the upside to this particular combo.

      Outside of competition and varmint shooting, what is the purpose of it?

      I know the benefits of shooting the 90's in a 223 platform for competition, seen it done and done well, but as a very niche combo.

      Why a fast heavy .22 caliber for hunting? Some states not allowed, so who exactly is this being catered to?

      I dont see the appeal.

      SY
      I did a search before and there are some states that allow .22 for hunting. Off the top of my head AR/GA/HI/LA/MD/NV/NC/MT/OR/VT/WI and a few others allow it from the list I saw. Maybe things have changed since I saw that list. Not saying I would ever use a .22 caliber for hunting, but there are states that allow it.

      I agree that this .224 Valkyrie seems to have a limited use.


      Originally posted by NugginFutz View Post
      I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.
      Thanks for redoing the data on that.

      Originally posted by sneaky one View Post
      Yes, thanks Nug., the Grr is the Best choice- overall, yet for a .224- WoW. Valkrie-It is a hot rod against to the Nosler. They both will work fine.

      Check on what you can get as components firstly. Brass....

      Where have I heard the Valkrie put out there as an ammo name before, hmmmm

      A hill, look at all the differences from frontal diameters, SD's etc. The Grr is the clear winner in the end here..


      If you separate the calibers, and run numbers - yes the Val could be king of the .224 class. This is the 6.5 G forum.
      I agree. I am a 6.5 Grendel guy. Have two setups and probably building another one soon. My favorite round for the AR platform. Still like seeing people come up with new stuff for the AR, and with Federal + LaRue supporting this, it will be interesting to see if it catches on at all.

      Comment

      • NugginFutz
        Chieftain
        • Aug 2013
        • 2622

        #18
        Originally posted by Kilco View Post
        Thanks Nuggin!! I was thinking the same thing when I looked at bullet selection.
        Originally posted by sneaky one View Post
        Yes, thanks Nug., the Grr is the Best choice- overall, yet for a .224- WoW. Valkrie-It is a hot rod against to the Nosler. They both will work fine.

        ...
        Originally posted by ahillock View Post
        ...
        Thanks for redoing the data on that.
        No trouble, really. I don't mind new players getting attention and recognition. It's what keeps the game interesting for a lot of us.

        I just take exception to posted results which turn out to be derived from spiked data. While I understand the enthusiasm for this (and other wildcats), it casts doubt on that round if you handicap the other cartridges you compare it against. I'm a bit surprised that Nate over at TFB made such an obvious error, and then went on to further stack the deck in favor of the new kid on the block (which clearly doesn't seem to need the help) by selecting non-VLD projectiles to compare against. He's generally better than this.

        Moments like this always remind me of a quote by Ronald H. Coase: "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess anything".
        If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

        Comment

        • JASmith
          Chieftain
          • Sep 2014
          • 1620

          #19
          Thanks for catching the uneven playing field.

          This is not the first time that unneeded debate and rancor was caused by someone who biased an assessment for a new cartridge.

          It happens often enough that one coukd wonder ifnthe ruckus was the actual objective. As we have seen before, notoriety gets name recognition and just recogning the name can sell things.
          shootersnotes.com

          "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
          -- Author Unknown

          "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

          Comment

          • StoneHendge
            Chieftain
            • May 2016
            • 2009

            #20
            Originally posted by JASmith View Post
            Thanks for catching the uneven playing field.

            This is not the first time that unneeded debate and rancor was caused by someone who biased an assessment for a new cartridge.

            It happens often enough that one coukd wonder ifnthe ruckus was the actual objective. As we have seen before, notoriety gets name recognition and just recogning the name can sell things.
            Just read the review again and it seems that the 90 gr VLD going 2700 was pulled out of thin air. No comment whatsoever in the article as to where that number came from. Just a number in a chart. Not saying it's not possible, but debate is pointless until there's actual real world data.

            But Federal must smell blood in the water with Nosler's stupid design. There's obviously a market (and a high end one at that) as I keep seeing more barrel makers get into 22 Nosler. Looks like Rainier will now sell you several different configurations in their ultra match line for 500 clams.

            I think the most telling sign of the problems with 22 Nosler is that 9 months after introduction, not a single powder manufacturer has put out any load data. Nor has anyone else put their name on the stupid rebated rimmed brass.
            Last edited by StoneHendge; 10-12-2017, 03:39 PM.
            Let's go Brandon!

            Comment

            • Kilco
              Chieftain
              • Jan 2016
              • 1201

              #21
              Originally posted by StoneHendge View Post
              Just read the review again and it seems that the 90 gr VLD going 2700 was pulled out of thin air. No comment whatsoever in the article as to where that number came from. Just a number in a chart. Not saying it's not possible, but debate is pointless until there's actual real world data.

              But Federal must smell blood in the water with Nosler's stupid design. There's obviously a market (and a high end one at that) as I keep seeing more barrel makers get into 22 Nosler. Looks like Rainier will now sell you several different configurations in their ultra match line for 500 clams.

              I think the most telling sign of the problems with 22 Nosler is that 9 months after introduction, not a single powder manufacturer has put out any load data. Nor has anyone else put their name on the stupid rebated rimmed brass.
              Really is too bad...

              My brother, like you has mixed feelings with his Odin Works 22 Nos. With 2520 is one of the most accurate gas guns I've seen... I mean constant 1/2" from the bench..

              But the brass... oh the brass..

              Comment

              • Arkhangel5
                Warrior
                • Apr 2016
                • 229

                #22
                Stonehenge,
                And that is assuming that a 90gr VLD will shoot loaded to magazine length.

                The pic shown representing the Valkyrie is not a VLD, it looks like a Sierra MK, there is a big difference in the BC's for each bullet, eg Berger 90vld = .560bc, 90gr SMK = .504bc.

                I have played with the 90vld and it is a finicky bullet to get shooting properly. It is very sensitive to barrel twist, seating depth and powder charge.

                Examples 1-7tw .223 26in barrel gets around 2600fps, would not shoot accurately above that speed in that barrel.

                28in 1-6.5tw would net around 2840fps and sensitive to seating depth, shot like a laser when it was on, the amount of testing getting to that combination was interesting.

                My point is, the tester cherrypicked the best numbers and threw them out there. If only going by the numbers, it looks like a good cartridge, but for what.

                SY

                Comment

                • StoneHendge
                  Chieftain
                  • May 2016
                  • 2009

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Arkhangel5 View Post
                  Stonehenge,
                  And that is assuming that a 90gr VLD will shoot loaded to magazine length.

                  The pic shown representing the Valkyrie is not a VLD, it looks like a Sierra MK, there is a big difference in the BC's for each bullet, eg Berger 90vld = .560bc, 90gr SMK = .504bc.

                  I have played with the 90vld and it is a finicky bullet to get shooting properly. It is very sensitive to barrel twist, seating depth and powder charge.

                  Examples 1-7tw .223 26in barrel gets around 2600fps, would not shoot accurately above that speed in that barrel.

                  28in 1-6.5tw would net around 2840fps and sensitive to seating depth, shot like a laser when it was on, the amount of testing getting to that combination was interesting.

                  My point is, the tester cherrypicked the best numbers and threw them out there. If only going by the numbers, it looks like a good cartridge, but for what.

                  SY
                  Long range target shooting, but like I said above, spotting hits at range is difficult with any 224. The other use I see in my parts is for varminting during big game season. In CO, you're not allowed to hunt big game with 224 caliber. but you're not allowed to hunt varmints with anything larger than 224 during a big game rifle season. How's that for a stupid law - we think you're going to poach if you're out in the field with something larger than 224 and you say you're just looking for yotes - but we won't worry about you shooting an elk with a 223 because anyone stupid enough to poach can't be stupid enough to shoot an elk with 223...... Then of course there are the people like us who build it because we can! And with more barrel makers getting into the 22 Nosler game, someone must be buying them. But I've been there/done that and personally no longer see the point given how cheap it is to shoot 223.

                  Kilco, what sort of SDs is your bro getting? Mine have really widened. I'm of the belief that I have case heads that are bent but not identifiable
                  Let's go Brandon!

                  Comment

                  • BluntForceTrauma
                    Administrator
                    • Feb 2011
                    • 3897

                    #24
                    Oh, no they di'nt!!

                    Federal just released their YouTube video for the 224 Valkyrie.

                    And, yes, they WENT THERE!

                    Claimed it was the "best MSR 15 round ever".

                    Oh, no they di'nt! Them thar's fightin' werdz!

                    Remember, the Horde was there first with short and fat and sleek and long.

                    Seriously, cool round. Check it out.
                    Attached Files
                    :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                    :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                    Comment

                    • bj139
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 1968

                      #25
                      How about a 17 Valkyrie with a 120 g bullet for maximum BC.

                      Pennsylvania allows any centerfire cartridge for deer so such powerhouses like the 22 Hornet and 17 Fireball are allowed.

                      Semi-autos are still not allowed for deer hunting but are allowed for small game but only 22 cal or less so no 6.5 Grendel ARs except for pests.
                      Last edited by bj139; 10-17-2017, 12:05 AM.

                      Comment

                      • Texas
                        Chieftain
                        • Jun 2016
                        • 1230

                        #26
                        Originally posted by NugginFutz View Post
                        I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.

                        I also noticed his BC for the 90 gr VLD was significantly higher than Berger's own posted G7 of 0.274, so I ran with the corrected BC.

                        Next, I chose a tried and true 123 Scenar for the Grendel. It is a solid choice for VLD comparisons.

                        Lastly, I updated the 77 grain from the SMK to Berger's Tactical/OTM, with an improved .192 G7 BC. Because the Wylde was simply the same projectile running 50 fps slower than the 22 Nosler, I omitted it entirely as being redundant.

                        I kept all the velocities as previously posted, and ran the numbers using the Applied Ballistics engine with standard atmospheric and temperature values. With the playing field now evened, the results are somewhat different.



                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]9925[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9924[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9923[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9922[/ATTACH]

                        Even still, the Valkyrie does maintain a slight edge on drop and windage, but never gets close for retained energy at any distance.
                        Thank you for your work, intuitively, your numbers seem more realistic.

                        Comment

                        • StoneHendge
                          Chieftain
                          • May 2016
                          • 2009

                          #27
                          They claim the "first ever" MSR-15 224 bullet to be supersonic at 1300 yards. Been there, done that (out of an 18").
                          Let's go Brandon!

                          Comment

                          • bj139
                            Chieftain
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 1968

                            #28
                            Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
                            Federal just released their YouTube video for the 224 Valkyrie.

                            And, yes, they WENT THERE!

                            Claimed it was the "best MSR 15 round ever".

                            Oh, no they di'nt! Them thar's fightin' werdz!

                            Remember, the Horde was there first with short and fat and sleek and long.

                            Seriously, cool round. Check it out.
                            The next video in the lineup on Youtube was Mark LaRue on the 224 Valkyrie.

                            The user comments on the video are a little disturbing. I don't know what to think.

                            Comment

                            • Sticks
                              Chieftain
                              • Dec 2016
                              • 1922

                              #29
                              A quick run with the numbers presuming 3000fps MV (stays out of trans sonic at 1300), compared to my MV on my 18"....gives a person pause.

                              1000 .224 90gr

                              Drop MIL-7.5 Drop In-25.9 Wind MIL 1.9 Wind in 6.7 Velocity 1552.9 Energy 481.9
                              1000 6.5 95gr
                              -12.5 -42.9 4.0 13.9 1001.8 211.7
                              Even with 123gr ELD...no comparison. The Valkyrie out does it.

                              As always, once you get set up, someone comes out with something better.

                              I see this as an awesome LR target and steel round.

                              We'll see what happens in the next year, and what kind of $$$ a body is looking at for ammo and reloading.
                              Sticks

                              Catchy sig line here.

                              Comment

                              • JASmith
                                Chieftain
                                • Sep 2014
                                • 1620

                                #30
                                The muzzle velocity numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. The 22 Nosler does not get 3000 fps from even a 77 gr bullet per their load data page: https://load-data.nosler.com/nosler-...osler-77gr.pdf
                                Last edited by JASmith; 10-17-2017, 06:54 PM.
                                shootersnotes.com

                                "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
                                -- Author Unknown

                                "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

                                Comment

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