.224 Valkyrie? Future competitor to the 6.5 Grendel?

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  • k1dude
    Unwashed
    • Aug 2016
    • 7

    #76
    Originally posted by NugginFutz View Post
    I couldn't help but notice that the source (Nathaniel F at TFB) chose a slick bullet for the Valkyrie, and all SMK's for the rest, so I decided I would try to re-run the numbers with an evened playing field.

    I also noticed his BC for the 90 gr VLD was significantly higher than Berger's own posted G7 of 0.274, so I ran with the corrected BC.

    Next, I chose a tried and true 123 Scenar for the Grendel. It is a solid choice for VLD comparisons.

    Lastly, I updated the 77 grain from the SMK to Berger's Tactical/OTM, with an improved .192 G7 BC. Because the Wylde was simply the same projectile running 50 fps slower than the 22 Nosler, I omitted it entirely as being redundant.

    I kept all the velocities as previously posted, and ran the numbers using the Applied Ballistics engine with standard atmospheric and temperature values. With the playing field now evened, the results are somewhat different.



    [ATTACH=CONFIG]9925[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9924[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9923[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]9922[/ATTACH]

    Even still, the Valkyrie does maintain a slight edge on drop and windage, but never gets close for retained energy at any distance.
    Where did you get the 288 G7 BC for the Lapua Scenar? Lapua is claiming a 263 G7 BC.

    Comment

    • NugginFutz
      Chieftain
      • Aug 2013
      • 2622

      #77
      Originally posted by k1dude View Post
      Where did you get the 288 G7 BC for the Lapua Scenar? Lapua is claiming a 263 G7 BC.
      Well, as I sit here slightly upset with myself, I can only surmise that I fat fingered the selection from the Applied Ballistics drop down. A Lapua 136 ScenarL (next projectile down) has a .288 G7.

      With apologies to the Horde, I will rerun the charts when time permits.

      In the meantime, here are the correct #'s for the 123 Scenar, using Brian Litz's measured .265 G7 bc.

      Good catch, K1dude.

      Range Velocity Energy Elevation Windage
      (y) (fps) (ft-lbs) (moa) (moa)
      0 2580 1818 0 0
      50 2496 1701 -0.14 0.14
      100 2413 1590 -0.19 0.36
      150 2331 1485 -1.11 0.57
      200 2252 1385 -2.33 0.78
      250 2174 1291 -3.72 1
      300 2097 1201 -5.23 1.23
      350 2022 1117 -6.85 1.47
      400 1949 1037 -8.57 1.71
      450 1876 962 -10.39 1.97
      500 1805 890 -12.32 2.23
      550 1736 823 -14.37 2.51
      600 1667 760 -16.53 2.79
      650 1600 700 -18.82 3.09
      700 1534 643 -21.24 3.41
      750 1470 590 -23.81 3.74
      800 1406 540 -26.54 4.09
      850 1344 494 -29.45 4.45
      900 1284 450 -32.54 4.83
      950 1225 410 -35.83 5.23
      1000 1168 373 -39.35 5.66
      If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

      Comment

      • bj139
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2017
        • 1968

        #78
        Doesn't this discussion belong on 224valkyrie.com?

        I thought this forum was about the 6.5 Grendel or 7.62x39 variants not 6.8 SPC variants.

        Comment

        • JASmith
          Chieftain
          • Sep 2014
          • 1620

          #79
          Originally posted by bj139 View Post
          Doesn't this discussion belong on 224valkyrie.com?

          I thought this forum was about the 6.5 Grendel or 7.62x39 variants not 6.8 SPC variants.
          Keep in mind that the Valkyrie is inevitably compared to the Grendel-based variant of the same caliber. In turn, as the OP indicated, we want to compare performance of other bullet diameters in Grendel-class cartridge lengths and powder capacities.

          So, yes, this forum is a happy place for the discussion.
          shootersnotes.com

          "To those who have fought and almost died for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
          -- Author Unknown

          "If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished!" -- Milton Berle

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #80
            Guys:

            Unless John says otherwise, this discussion is fine and will stay.

            LR55

            Comment

            • NugginFutz
              Chieftain
              • Aug 2013
              • 2622

              #81
              Again, allow me to apologize to the Horde for sloppy spreadsheeting.

              Bad news: Once home, I confirmed via the saved header data in the parent spreadsheet that the data was, in fact, from the 136 ScenarL and its .288 BC.

              Good news: Even with the 123 Scenar and its .265 BC, the picture changes little. While the 22V has a slightly larger advantage on drop / drift, the energy still eludes it, even out to 1000.

              22V fps.jpg
              22v energy.jpg
              22v drop.jpg
              22v drift.jpg
              If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

              Comment

              • Sea Leopard
                Unwashed
                • Sep 2017
                • 5

                #82
                I have not read all of the comments and apologize for any redundancy, looking at the 224V the comparison to anything other than another 224V is inconceivable. You may try individual comparisons of all components, the cartridge, bullet, powder, primer, firearm and test environment. At best you are painting a lemon green and calling it a lime. Remember Popeye "I ams what I ams"

                Comment

                • NugginFutz
                  Chieftain
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 2622

                  #83
                  Originally posted by Sea Leopard View Post
                  I have not read all of the comments and apologize for any redundancy, looking at the 224V the comparison to anything other than another 224V is inconceivable. You may try individual comparisons of all components, the cartridge, bullet, powder, primer, firearm and test environment. At best you are painting a lemon green and calling it a lime. Remember Popeye "I ams what I ams"
                  Then read the OP at the least. There is the premise upon which these charts are based.
                  If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                  Comment

                  • StoneHendge
                    Chieftain
                    • May 2016
                    • 2009

                    #84
                    The 75 gr Berger VLD has a G7 of 0.217. 2900 fps is what I get with 27 gr of XBR out of an 18" - which Hodgdon just published as its max charge for 75s - they have it at 2969 out of a 24. But they have it at 3049 with H4350. Who woulda thunk. H4350 in 22 Nosler. Nosler didn't even think of it!
                    Let's go Brandon!

                    Comment

                    • BluntForceTrauma
                      Administrator
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 3897

                      #85
                      Latest article in American Rifleman online.
                      :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                      :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                      Comment

                      • bj139
                        Chieftain
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 1968

                        #86
                        I originally got a 6.5 Grendel because I considered 223 to be too small for deer.
                        I know many have been killed with 22 caliber but it just seems too small.
                        I would say based on this information the 224 Valkyrie is better than the 6.5 Grendel for ringing steel at long range.

                        Comment

                        • BluntForceTrauma
                          Administrator
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 3897

                          #87
                          It might well be, but I consider this cartridge to be still in the Marketing Hype Phase. Need about a year for a consensus on real-world performance.

                          For pure long-range ballistics within the confines of the standard AR double-stack magazine and mag well, we've already had the 6mmAR, for example.

                          6.5 Grendel has its place doing many things very well, without needing to absolutely specialize in any one thing. It's like the F/A-18 Hornet. Damn good multi-role weapon.

                          We've got 85-grain varmint bullets for prairie dogs; 140-grain bullets for moose (about the same as traditional 6.5 Swedish). And all the other bullets and applications in-between. If I could have only ONE gun. . . .

                          I challenge Federal's lofty claims that 224 Valkyrie is the best MSR cartridge EVER. If the AK47 with a 123-grain bullet was good enough to serve the world's militaries for — what, 70 years? — the 6.5 Grendel with a 123-grain sure as hell is good enough. And that's without hardly trying to develop specialized projectiles. So 6.5 Grendel is still the best MSR cartridge EVER. Of this I have no doubt.

                          Plus, we've got cheap Wolf steel-case by the pallet-load.

                          Having said that, 224 Valkyrie still has my seal of approval, for all the reasons I've mentioned earlier in this thread. Probably should have been based on the Grendel case for even better performance, but it's a solid design in its own right. Put it this way: It's what the 6.8 SPC should have been.
                          :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                          :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                          Comment

                          • StoneHendge
                            Chieftain
                            • May 2016
                            • 2009

                            #88
                            What BFT said. It's going to be a few weeks, but I'm going to pick up either some 90 gr SMKs or Bergers and single load them in my 22 Nosler with an OAL of 2.46 per the new Hodgdon data with H4350. I should be able to get close to 2700 based on the velocities they publish for other loads I've tried.

                            One thing is Sierra says the 90s need a twist of 1:6.5 and Berger says 1:6 for the VLDs and my 22N is 1:8. If a 224V barrel is optimized for 90s, it's going to make it a bit of a one trick pony since lighter bullets won't be able to handle the twist. Nothing wrong with that as I did a 1:7 on the 6mm Grrrrr barrel I ordered to stabilize the heavies at the expense of the lites, but the 224V will be even more magnified. There's a reason why there's a market for 1:14 22-250s.

                            Like BFT said, Grrrrr can do everything
                            Let's go Brandon!

                            Comment

                            • BluntForceTrauma
                              Administrator
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 3897

                              #89
                              In my original analysis, I opined that if the 224V uses widely available, standard 1:7 barrels, it would be a hit.

                              If it requires a non-standard barrel blank, I think its appeal will be more limited. Despite the constant innovation, the firearms industry is quite hide-bound, when it comes right down to it.
                              :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                              :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                              Comment

                              • StoneHendge
                                Chieftain
                                • May 2016
                                • 2009

                                #90
                                Indeed. Everything is a trade off. The best investment in the firearms industry is probably in safe manufacturers because we all need bigger safes to store this new stuff we convince ourself we need!
                                Let's go Brandon!

                                Comment

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