Why is 6.8 SPC still a thing when 6.5 Grendel is more and more popular?

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  • LRRPF52
    Super Moderator
    • Sep 2014
    • 8569

    #31
    The military isn't interested in either of them for standard issue, especially looking at 5.56 NATO M855A1 performance.

    The sniping community in several of the services within SOCOM and USMC have shown interest in 6.5 Grendel because:

    Higher hit probability than M118LR from shorter barrels with longer barrel life for courses, half the recoil, fits in the SPR or M4 profile, much better solution than SR25/M110/SCAR-H.

    More rounds can be carried for the Sniper/DM duty positions, whereas you can go Black on ammo very quickly with 7.62 NATO.

    There has been more focus on .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor for SSRs, while they are also looking for a 6.5mm Assault LMG within SOCOM, no mention of anything .277 currently.

    For the civilian side, Grendel exceeds 6.8 SPC II performance from the same barrel lengths with the same bullets from the same companies, then really leaves it in the dust when looking at 129gr ABLR.

    Doesn't matter if it's SBRs, 16", or 20", you see velocities within a few tens of fps of each other, with substantially higher BCs from 6.5mm, lower working pressure, and the availability of affordable steel case ammo for Grendel.

    I get called a liar over and over, so I did one of my searches....again for specific SPC II speeds from 16" barrels, including the most efficient powders recommended by Harrison.

    Everything was 2470-2500fps from a 16" SPC II barrel with hand loads under the 120gr SST, which is a fine bullet for hunting with the 6.8-nothing wrong with it at all. Affordable, deadly within parameters, accurate.

    I'm not a hater for pointing out that the 123gr SST, with the same construction and expansion envelope, at the same speeds or even slower speeds, exceeds the terminal performance of the 120gr SST in 6.8 SPC II non-standard chambers meant for maximum horsepower.

    It's not my fault the BC is almost a full value higher with one than the other.

    It's not my fault that one has way better sectional density.

    It's not my fault that one is spinning faster when it hits the animal, with faster impact speed, with more retained energy, more penetration, and equal or more expansion.

    This makes me a liar though for some reason...really odd.

    I'm cherry-picking the data.

    It's funny to see someone who I know can read and do basic logical deduction or addition even claim that out of the "10,000 bullets for 6.5 Grendel", most of them are target bullets and the few hunting bullets for 6.5mm require .260 Rem speeds to expand.

    The majority of the hunting bullets on the market for 6.5mm were never designed for .260 Rem speeds. They were designed for 6.5x55 Mauser speeds from surplus actions, where chamber pressure had to be kept down in the mid 40ksi region.

    Everything 85-130gr expands very well at Grendel velocities, with a few exceptions. The premium Barnes 100gr TTSX is one, but it still has expansion range for common hunting distances within 275yds.

    First I'm told that who needs all that long range performance when shooting animals within 200yds, then I'm told that the 100gr TTSX is crap because it only expands out to 260yds from a 16"??? Scratching head....

    If you want to do an addition test, go count all of the 6.5mm bullets that are for hunting, and all of them that are for target. I've been doing it for years.

    Last I checked, there are significantly more hunting bullets that expand just fine within Grendel muzzle velocities within common hunting distances.

    Not good enough. I'm a liar, you see.

    I just counted the inventory of Midway's site, for example. 68 of 98 are hunting bullets in 6.5mm.

    You see a similar breakdown when you look at the entirety of the available 6.5mm bullets on the market.

    In our shameless quest for profits in the firehouse reloading handbook market, when we put together Volume II, we came up with an even longer list of bullets.

    Most of them are hunting bullets. All of the loads in Volume II are for hunting bullets.

    All of them will expand within common hunting distances.

    The 100gr and 120gr NBTs do even from shorter barrels.

    The TSX and TTSX do.

    The SSTs do.

    The Pro Hunters do-even Sierra specifically says the 120gr Pro Hunter is meant for slower muzzle velocities or longer range from a faster cartridge, and will fragment at .260 Rem speeds at close range.

    Same for Hot Cors, Partitions, and about every hunting bullet you can find for 6.5mm.

    Nope, I'm lying. Target bullets are more prevalent, because 6.5 Grendel is meant for target, not hunting. Hunting is 6.8 SPC's sole domain of horsepower dominance.

    The basic math and open facts simply don't support any of these blatant falsehoods. Anyone can look it up and see, don't trust me.
    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

    www.AR15buildbox.com

    Comment

    • grayfox
      Chieftain
      • Jan 2017
      • 4295

      #32
      I'm just a simple money-paying customer; I started out in the 6.8 world and switched over to 6.5's for a host of reasons. But if someone wants to shoot 6.8's I'm perfectly good with that, let them have their choices, the more the merrier. I happen like 6.5 choices better for me and for my shooting.

      All the guys and discussions on this forum happen to be one of those reasons I switched, but another is I find a better-supplied, wider market for what I need, which for me translates directly into better prospects for enjoying my shootin' for a longer timeframe.

      Plus I get to plunk bullets out farther at paper and critters than I could have with a fatter bullet! just sayin'.
      "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

      Comment

      • PVBoom
        Warrior
        • Oct 2017
        • 406

        #33
        But, the fun never ends.

        Its a full out brushfire over on ar15.com.

        Just make some popcorn first and get ready to laugh.

        Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

        Comment

        • Double Naught Spy
          Chieftain
          • Sep 2013
          • 2560

          #34
          Originally posted by ahillock View Post
          Why are gun makers still putting effort into 6.8 SPC when it seems like it is a dead man walking? 6.5 Grendel is better in every aspect and is only growing in popularity. 6.8 SPC is a dead cartridge and I don't see why gun makers are still putting effort into it since it is a dead end instead of just jumping on the 6.5 Grendel train.
          Well, let's see. More and more folks are making 6.8 every day and you can buy 6.8 ammo at Walmart (at least here) and there are a BUNCH of different factory offerings for 6.8 ammo.

          Folks here get so excited when they hear that somebody is offering a new factory load for 6.5 Grendel that they can't hardly type straight. A new round comes out in 6.8 spc and it is but a drop in the bucket that makes small ripples and folks barely notice.

          6.8 is hardly dead or dying.
          Kill a hog. Save the planet.
          My videos - https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

          Comment

          • Kilco
            Chieftain
            • Jan 2016
            • 1201

            #35
            Originally posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
            Well, let's see. More and more folks are making 6.8 every day and you can buy 6.8 ammo at Walmart (at least here) and there are a BUNCH of different factory offerings for 6.8 ammo.

            Folks here get so excited when they hear that somebody is offering a new factory load for 6.5 Grendel that they can't hardly type straight. A new round comes out in 6.8 spc and it is but a drop in the bucket that makes small ripples and folks barely notice.

            6.8 is hardly dead or dying.
            Truth dart.

            +1 DNS

            Comment

            • ahillock
              Warrior
              • Jan 2016
              • 339

              #36
              +1 LRRPF52. Thanks for digging up that ballistics info and posting the other stuff. Good data. The numbers don't lie. 6.5G outperforms 6.8SPC in everything I have come across. SBR. Long barrels. Short distance. Long distance. Just a better round.

              Comment

              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3355

                #37
                OK guys:


                This thread asked why guys buy the 6.8 when the Grendel is so good.

                Here is why.

                Because they want to.

                LR55

                Comment

                • bj139
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 1968

                  #38
                  If you shoot at 200 yards they are not much different.
                  If you shoot at 1000 yards they are very different.

                  Comment

                  • Lastrites
                    Warrior
                    • Apr 2017
                    • 678

                    #39
                    Most of butt hurt of the 6.8 goes back to the beginning where Remington screwed their pooch with errors in their saami submission with that the 6.8II guys have never gotten over it as their chambers and mine as I have a 6.8II also from back in the day is essentially a wildcat for handloaders only at this point as hotter factory loads have disappeared and their promised cheap practice load never appeared. The 6.8II would have been better served if it would have had a name change and had its own saami approval but then it would have had a harder time riding the coattails of the original 6.8 offering as they would have had to start from ground zero and provide the substantial outlay of cash and support for submission. But I digress as they should have named their improved chamber something along the lines of 270 Short.

                    My Bison shoots well but has broken 2 extractors and anything but the expensive PRI mags may induce occasional feeding errors. Both 6.5 and 6.8 have a lot in common from devoted advocates to similar performance at certain distance but the biggest difference is the 6.8 guys seem really defensive where I fail to see the same with the Grendel crowd. Oh and Harrison is a real tool, likely has done more harm than good with his abrasive approach and god like mentality for the future of the 6.8II.

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #40
                      Guys:

                      I think that is enough of this one. If you want to compare the two cartridges, there are twenty or thirty threads that do so.

                      This one is heading down the path of all the other threads comparing the two cartridges. After the page of real facts, there comes volumes of what is almost a religious argument.

                      LR55

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