1st reloads to the range today

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  • bj139
    Chieftain
    • Mar 2017
    • 1968

    #16
    Since you are new to reloading, did you see any evidence of high pressure?

    Were any of the primers excessively flat or cratered?

    Reading pressure signs is important if you don't want to blow your face off.

    I have this and it enabled me to shoot several 0.5 MOA groups.

    Last edited by bj139; 10-20-2017, 02:18 AM.

    Comment

    • NugginFutz
      Chieftain
      • Aug 2013
      • 2622

      #17
      Originally posted by Bigs28 View Post
      ...A little back story first. The 6.5 grendel is my first AR and first semi auto. Ive always shot bolt actions and shot them very well.
      ...
      So heres my questions. What is a decent inexpensive bullet to buy to load for plinking for more trigger time and what is another good option for a lead free hunting round shooting in florida where the game is typically 100-150lb deer and hogs. I am thinking I can go with a lighter lead free bullet that I might be able to get higher velocities on to increase the effective range maybe.
      ...
      I also admit that I am not an expert shooter but I do shoot allot better then this with my bolt action 270.
      Bigs28 - It sounds to me like you're doing just fine, but there are some skills with bolt action shooting that don't directly translate to AR's / Semi-Autos.

      Where I have seen many successful bolt shooters use a light touch - even to the point of allowing the rifle to slide freely in the bags, I've found that the AR requires a different approach.

      I would keep in mind that there is a lot of violent activity occurring while the AR is in its firing cycle, starting from the moment the hammer is released from the sear. This can translate into movement in the rifle as your projectile is still clearing the muzzle. You might want to consider tucking that AR more firmly into your shoulder, helping to prevent the stock from moving around quite so much.

      As far as inexpensive ammo is concerned, the Hornady Black has been sold for as little as $17 a box, and Wold Steel is available @ $.25 per round. I personally have no experience with lead free projectiles, but several members here do. I expect they will chime in shortly.

      Lastly, I've not had any luck with getting CFE223 to shoot as well as some of my other powders, even though it is capable of higher MV's. Problem is, you can't miss fast enough to take down the target, so I stick with 8208 when I load the 123's. Your rifle may be among those that don't have an appetite for CFE. For the lighter stuff, I really like H322. IT, like IMR 8208 XBR, is quite temperature stable and both are quite accurate in my experience.
      If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

      Comment

      • VASCAR2
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2011
        • 6218

        #18
        I’ve loaded the 100 grain Barnes TTSX (monolithic bullet) and they are a little expensive but work well at 6.5 Grendel velocity. This might sound crazy but I’ve seen rifles not shoot well after shooting solid monolithic bullets then switching to cup and core bullets. A Friend claimed he had to clean his barrel after shooting Noslers before switching to Sierra’s to obtain best accuracy with Sierra bullets.


        The CFE223 powder supposedly has copper fouling eliminator and supposedly limits copper fouling in barrels. I have shot mostly CFE223 powder in my Shilen 6.5 Grendel. Last time I cleaned my Shilen I was amazed how little copper was in the bore from shooting cup and core bullets with CFE223. Seems strange but some barrels shoot better seasoned with copper fouling as opposed to being clean.

        Every barrel seems unique and sometimes the accuracy improves after the barrel has a few hundred rounds through it. Sometimes switching powders will have a significant affect on accuracy. I know as I get older many times I’m the weak link in my rifles ability to produce good accuracy. I like for other people to shoot my rifle so I can gauge my ability to theirs.

        Comment

        • Sticks
          Chieftain
          • Dec 2016
          • 1922

          #19
          One really has to "Drive" an AR rifle when shooting for accuracy.

          Try putting a bipod on the girl, and preload the crap out of it. With the AR Grendel, if you are locked in, you should see very little movement in the optic, and return to target/POA after the monkey business of the 3 recoils finishes (Muzzle exit, bolt to the rear, bolt going into battery). If you are not locked in, kiss goodbye consistent cheek weld and shoulder pocket - especially if you are new to the rifle.

          I just got done running 3 ladders (3 powders). CFE, AA 2230, AA 2520. All three powders had two accuracy nodes. One at the bottom end with the bullet plodding along at 2200fps, and the second was around 2475fps (same as Hornady ELD). All shooting 123gr ELD bullets. 2500+ just is not in my destiny.

          .1gr increments is a little extreme at this point IMO. Stick with .3, then .2 or .1 once you find a node. First you have to fix the stringing.
          Sticks

          Catchy sig line here.

          Comment

          • TomSawyerNW
            Warrior
            • Nov 2015
            • 225

            #20
            I, for one, appreciate all the comments and great suggestions.

            I've been quietly sitting here in my little corner sipping coffee and taking notes.
            If the Democrats had been in power when this country was founded, we'd be the British.

            Comment

            • LR1955
              Super Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 3355

              #21
              Originally posted by Bigs28 View Post
              A little back story first. The 6.5 grendel is my first AR and first semi auto. Ive always shot bolt actions and shot them very well. I figured I would start my first AR by building it so that way I would know how the entire thing works and how to disassemble and clean etc. I had help from a guy who builds ARs for a living. I ordered all my parts individually and think I ordered pretty good stuff. Alexander Arms stripped lower, 16" barrel, and bolt. Midwest Industries handguard, Larue MBT 2s trigger.

              First time I took it out shooting I wanted to throw it in the trash as previously posted. I shot hornady 123 g SST and Amax, The amax shot better but still like 2moaish and the SST was easily 5+ MOA. I did my research and lapped the upper receiver, bedded the barrel and went back with Amax and ELD-M. It shot much better. 4 shot groups were mostly all around 1moa with a couple 3/4 MOA. Of course, I wanted better so lets take a dive into reloading. I got all my reloading gear back in June (its october), thats right I spent 4 months doing a ton of research, bought and read volumes 1 and 2 of the reloading handbooks, along with a few other books, watched countless youtube videos on reloading etc.

              I ordered 200 blem bullets from midway. I understand these might not be as accurate as non blems but its my first bullets to reload and the main goal is to not blow my face off right. I ordered 123g polymer tipped boat tails that im not positive what they are and 120g lead free that LRRP52 said were the Hornady GMX in a previous post. Following volume 2 load data I found a 120g lead free load and 123g load that used CFE powder and CCI 41 primers.

              My reloading process was very thorough. 1st I took all my once fired brass and put it in the tumbler and most ran from 8-12 hours overnight. After that I lubed and put through my redding full length resizing/depriming die. Then I put back in the tumbler to take the lube off overnight. After that I trimmed all the brass with my Worlds Finest Trimmer to 1.513. Next I used the chamfer deburring tool to clean the edge I trimmer. After that I used a RCBS priming tool to prime all the cases. Now its time for charges. I did 10 rounds of the lowest charge of the 123g first. 5 shots to foul up the barrel a little then everything else would be 5 shot groups. The 123 grains had a max load of 31.0g of powder so I started at 27.9 and did .3g increases to 30.3g stopping 0.7 g short of max load. I loaded with COAL of 2.250 +- .003. I loaded the 120g lead free starting at 27.3 and increased in 0.3g increments to 30.0 with COAL 2.250 +-0.003.

              Im guessing the 123g that I dont know what they are are SST cause the groups were aweful as you will see in the pictures. My 123g groups are the top 2 targets. The lead free where not much better but I had 2 groups that were "OK" for hunting purposes but not going to win me anything. I was using a 16x nikon monarch which works very well for me on my bolt action. I moved it to the AR just for load development. I was shooting off a gun rest and I admit that the table height wasnt super confortable for me but I was able to get into what I felt was a good steady shooting position with what felt like good trigger pulls. It was a little breezy and im not sure how much that affected the groups or if it was all me or some of the loads or all of the above.

              So heres my questions. What is a decent inexpensive bullet to buy to load for plinking for more trigger time and what is another good option for a lead free hunting round shooting in florida where the game is typically 100-150lb deer and hogs. I am thinking I can go with a lighter lead free bullet that I might be able to get higher velocities on to increase the effective range maybe.

              I also admit that I am not an expert shooter but I do shoot allot better then this with my bolt action 270.
              B28:

              Seems to me that you have found your inexpensive plinkers.

              So, second time out with the rifle using some reloads. Not experienced shooting a gas gun off of a bench. Untested handloads using bullets of unknown manufacture that are factory seconds.

              I think the problem is that you haven't polished the brass enough.

              Actually, how about shooting more and tumbling less? Whip up a bunch of ammo using a mid range load, take the blaster out to a range and run some speed drills with mag changes to get used to its fit and function. Then go to a bench or bipod and do some work on position with some five shot rapid fire drills for accuracy. After five or ten range sessions you will have found something that ought to let you assess ammunition performance more clearly. And you will probably find that most loads shoot very well providing you have a decent barrel.

              LR55

              Comment

              • Bigs28
                Chieftain
                • Feb 2016
                • 1786

                #22
                Im sorry LR55, I wasnt very clear in what I was saying I guess. This wasnt my second time out with the gun. Ive now shot 140 rounds of Factory 123g SST, 100 rounds of factory 123g amax, 200 rounds of ELD-M, and my 100 reloads over 7-8 range trips. The ELD-M shot the best right around 0.75-1moa for 4 shot groups. I know this is nothing compared to allot of people and I have a TON of learning to do. My post was only stating my reloading process, what I was using for powder primer and bullets, and wanting to know where I should look to in the future for inexpensive reload bullets to keep reloading and get trigger time and some ideas of what powder bullet combos to try next for hunting/accuracy or precision whichever term you like. As another poster previously posted I will try the 100g Barnes soon. I still have 50 of the GMX so im going to see if I can work around those 2 loads that were "ok" and the 123g im going to try a different powder with.

                Thanks again

                Everyone.

                And good points on speed drills. I definitely enjoy this rifle and its a ton of fun to shoot. It has great potential for providing me allot of fun in the future.
                Last edited by Bigs28; 10-20-2017, 01:43 PM.

                Comment

                • LR1955
                  Super Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3355

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Bigs28 View Post
                  Im sorry LR55, I wasnt very clear in what I was saying I guess. This wasnt my second time out with the gun. Ive now shot 140 rounds of Factory 123g SST, 100 rounds of factory 123g amax, 200 rounds of ELD-M, and my 100 reloads over 7-8 range trips. The ELD-M shot the best right around 0.75-1moa for 4 shot groups. I know this is nothing compared to allot of people and I have a TON of learning to do. My post was only stating my reloading process, what I was using for powder primer and bullets, and wanting to know where I should look to in the future for inexpensive reload bullets to keep reloading and get trigger time and some ideas of what powder bullet combos to try next for hunting/accuracy or precision whichever term you like. As another poster previously posted I will try the 100g Barnes soon. I still have 50 of the GMX so im going to see if I can work around those 2 loads that were "ok" and the 123g im going to try a different powder with.

                  Thanks again

                  Everyone.

                  And good points on speed drills. I definitely enjoy this rifle and its a ton of fun to shoot. It has great potential for providing me allot of fun in the future.
                  B28:

                  Well, thanks for clarifying! I thought it was your second time out. Even read your post a couple of times before being a wise guy.

                  You have gone through about 500 rounds and haven't found something you can depend on? I can see why you are frustrated.

                  When all else fails, buy some 120 grain Match Kings and try them. If they don't shoot consistently very well, you do have a problem.

                  Not sure what your standards of performance are but if you can hold one minute day in and day out with a load, you are doing very good.

                  If you are in search of that 1/2 minute accuracy level, consistently, repeatedly, every time you shoot, you may be searching for a very long time. There are maybe three guys on this forum I believe have a load and rifle that will hold 3/4 a minute or less and are capable of that level of performance when they shoot.

                  Get some 120 Match Kings, go with a mid range load, normal seating depth. I bet you will be very pleased with the result and it will give you a baseline from which you can evaluate other bullets and loads.

                  LR55

                  Comment

                  • Bigs28
                    Chieftain
                    • Feb 2016
                    • 1786

                    #24
                    Originally posted by bj139 View Post
                    Since you are new to reloading, did you see any evidence of high pressure?

                    Were any of the primers excessively flat or cratered?

                    Reading pressure signs is important if you don't want to blow your face off.

                    I have this and it enabled me to shoot several 0.5 MOA groups.

                    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/39...-shooting-rest
                    All of my primer strikes looked the same and the all the 123g did fine. My highest charge of the 120g GMX had flattened primers.



                    LR, No worries. The ELD-M does shoot around 1moa with some groups less. Im not searching for 0.5 MOA with this gun. Maybe in the future I will get something for that. Im mostly searching for a lead free hunting round consistantly at 1moa and a cheap plinking round for fun. When I get my SBR stamp back and make my faxon 12" build I might just turn this into a wolf steel case upper for cheap shooting but that wont be till after this hunting season has passed. Im going to get some AR Comp and 8208 to try.

                    Comment

                    • bj139
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 1968

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                      One really has to "Drive" an AR rifle when shooting for accuracy.

                      Try putting a bipod on the girl, and preload the crap out of it. With the AR Grendel, if you are locked in, you should see very little movement in the optic, and return to target/POA after the monkey business of the 3 recoils finishes (Muzzle exit, bolt to the rear, bolt going into battery). If you are not locked in, kiss goodbye consistent cheek weld and shoulder pocket - especially if you are new to the rifle.

                      I just got done running 3 ladders (3 powders). CFE, AA 2230, AA 2520. All three powders had two accuracy nodes. One at the bottom end with the bullet plodding along at 2200fps, and the second was around 2475fps (same as Hornady ELD). All shooting 123gr ELD bullets. 2500+ just is not in my destiny.

                      .1gr increments is a little extreme at this point IMO. Stick with .3, then .2 or .1 once you find a node. First you have to fix the stringing.
                      Sticks,
                      Thanks for the shooting instruction. I am using a lead sled and hold the handgrip firmly with rearward pressure into my shoulder but don't hold the forend firmly. The optic doesn't stay on target as the lead sled moves on recoil. I will try to hold more firmly. I shot several 0.5 MOA 3 shot groups with my Overwatch upper with 85g Sierras and HP335.

                      I have only loaded starting loads of 85g Sierras and think this may be near your lower accuracy nodes.
                      Last edited by bj139; 10-20-2017, 02:54 PM.

                      Comment

                      • bj139
                        Chieftain
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 1968

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Bigs28 View Post
                        All of my primer strikes looked the same and the all the 123g did fine. My highest charge of the 120g GMX had flattened primers. Im going to get some AR Comp and 8208 to try.
                        I forgot to mention to compare the flat primers to factory ammo to judge what pressure level you are at.

                        Brownells had a 1 cent hazmat fee yesterday only and I was going to order some XBR8208 but they were out of stock.

                        Comment

                        • Cornbread
                          Warrior
                          • Dec 2015
                          • 288

                          #27
                          Originally posted by bj139 View Post
                          Sticks,
                          Thanks for the shooting instruction. I am using a lead sled and hold the handgrip firmly with rearward pressure into my shoulder but don't hold the forend firmly. The optic doesn't stay on target as the lead sled moves on recoil. I will try to hold more firmly. I shot several 0.5 MOA 3 shot groups with my Overwatch upper with 85g Sierras and HP335.

                          I have only loaded starting loads of 85g Sierras and think this may be near your lower accuracy nodes.
                          With an AR you need to hold pressure on the front either by loading a bipod or by holding the handgaurd firmly. I find during load development that loading 1 round in 1/3 gr increments from the lower end to max can often save time and components. You will find that when you hit the accuracy node the rounds will group together.


                          This can save a lot of time and components. In this picture you can see rounds 5-7 over 1 grains variance grouped around 3/4". By narrowing in on this node you can find a very accurate load. I will typically find a bullet I want to shoot and do 1 shot ladders with several powders.
                          Last edited by Cornbread; 10-21-2017, 03:22 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Sticks
                            Chieftain
                            • Dec 2016
                            • 1922

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Cornbread View Post
                            With an AR you need to hold pressure on the front either by loading a bipod or by holding the handgaurd firmly. I find during load development that loading 1 round in 1/3 gr increments from the lower end to max can often save time and components. You will find that when you hit the accuracy node the rounds will group together.

                            This can save a lot of time and components. In this picture you can see rounds 5-7 over 1 grains variance grouped around 3/4". By narrowing in on this node you can find a very accurate load. I will typically find a bullet I want to shoot and do 1 shot ladders with several powders.
                            Some of us are not good enough shots to count a single shot as perfect.

                            I have to account to shooter error.

                            Sticks

                            Catchy sig line here.

                            Comment

                            • Cornbread
                              Warrior
                              • Dec 2015
                              • 288

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                              Some of us are not good enough shots to count a single shot as perfect.

                              I have to account to shooter error.

                              When doing load development I use a mechanical rest that all but eliminates shooter error. It's a good investment that will pay dividends in not wasting components.

                              Comment

                              • LRRPF52
                                Super Moderator
                                • Sep 2014
                                • 8569

                                #30
                                What muzzle device and torque value did you use?

                                I never load 5rd batches anymore when doing load development.

                                I load 10rd ladders with every charge being incrementally different by 1% usable case volume, so .3gr in Grendel.

                                I make a dummy cartridge and find where the lands are, then back off by at least .020", with magazine length COL being the main determining factor before that.

                                I'll shoot maybe 2 or 3 different ladders, then go to a different COL if I'm not seeing accuracy nodes.

                                Even with different charge weights, I'll normally see 3-4 of the rounds cluster well within .5 MOA usually.

                                If you shoot at 300yds and color your projectile tips with a marker for different charge weights, you'll be able to see where the nodes are.

                                But at the end of the day, I wouldn't expect high end barrel accuracy from a 16" AR15 barrel for under $200.

                                I've built a bunch of uppers with the AA fluted 16" pipes, and some would shoot .5 MOA, some would shoot 1 MOA, and others will be 1.2 to even 1.7 MOA with factory Hornady ammo.

                                It's a very lightweight build you end up with, that likes to move under recoil.

                                If you want better accuracy, you have to spend more from a premium barrel company or use the premium barrel option for a build.

                                You can get wrapped around the axle chasing accuracy, or just enjoy the little carbine with a known load and proceed to hit steel targets, punch paper, or hunt.

                                Most steel targets are 12" or larger.

                                Vital zone on most deer is around 10".

                                What are your priorities?

                                A. Posting sub-MOA groups at 100yds or more online?

                                B. Having fun hitting steel targets at various distances?

                                C. Hunting medium game?

                                For me, having fun hitting steel seems to be the most enjoyable thing to do, whereas I hate shooting groups at 100yds. Feels like a necessary hurdle I have to work through with new loads, rifles, etc.

                                My approach is to just shell out the money for a premium barrel right out of the gate, with a known shop that will use the correct reamer and know that I expect them to use the correct reamer, then I get based A, B, and C covered if I want.

                                Anytime I roll the dice on a lower-priced barrel, I fully expect to be unimpressed. If it happens to shoot, lucky me.
                                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                                www.AR15buildbox.com

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