108gr Lapua Sccenar over 123gr ELD

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  • Sticks
    Chieftain
    • Dec 2016
    • 1922

    108gr Lapua Sccenar over 123gr ELD

    Running down a rabbit hole, and I wish I had not.

    I was building everything up on my reloads based around the Hornady ELD - which is spooky accurate factory ammo.

    Then I get to running numbers for my Moscow Match and came out with this....JBM ballistics all factors being equal except the bullet and MV. Using my known velocity numbers for the 123 ELD, and based on my own results, I am pretty sure I can hit the max load MV of 2680 on the Lapuas.

    123 ELD
    108 Lapua
    123 ELD
    108 Lapua
    123 ELD
    108 Lapua
    123 ELD
    108 Lapua
    Range Drop Drop Drop
    Drop Windage Windage Windage
    Windage Velocity
    Velocity
    Energy Energy
    (yd) (mil) (in) (mil) (in) (mil) (in) (mil) (in) (ft/s) (ft/s)
    (ft•lbs) (ft•lbs)
    100 0 0 0 0 0.2 0.7 0.2
    0.7 2325.2 2510.4
    1476.3 1511
    200 -0.5 -3.6 -0.4 -2.7 0.4 2.8 0.4
    2.7
    2180.4 2346.5
    1298.2
    1320.2
    300 -1.3 -14.6 -1.1 -11.7 0.6 6.5 0.6
    6.3 2041.2 2188.9
    1137.7
    1148.8
    400 -2.4 -33.9 -1.9 -28 0.8 11.9 0.8
    11.6 1907 2037.8
    993.1
    995.7
    500 -3.5 -62.7 -2.9
    -52.7 1.1 19.3 1
    18.8 1777.4 1892.7
    862.6
    858.9
    600 -4.8 -102.6 -4
    -87.1 1.3 28.8 1.3
    28.1 1651.8 1752.8
    745.1 736.6
    700 -6.2 -155.3 -5.3 -132.8 1.6 40.6 1.6
    39.7 1530.2 1617.7
    639.4 627.4
    800 -7.7 -222.8 -6.7 -191.9
    1.9 55.2 1.9 54.1 1412.7 1487.2
    544.9
    530.3
    900 -9.5 -307.8 -8.2 -266.7
    2.2 72.9 2.2
    71.5
    1299.6
    1361.6 461.2
    444.5
    1000 -11.5 -413.5 -10 -360.4
    2.6 94 2.6
    92.4
    1192.1
    1241.7
    388
    369.7
    I think LRRPF52, or someone else already ran the numbers like this and was contemplating the switch as well.

    200 rounds of ladder loads, 3 different powders 2 days of loading and shooting to find what I need to do with the ELD, and now I have to go through it all again. CRAP!

    Less drop, less wind drift, and only 19FT# less energy at 1k. What is not to like?

    If this proves to be the case, and my barrel happens to like the 108s, cost of this hobby just went up 15% (more powder, expensive pill...)
    Sticks

    Catchy sig line here.
  • Bobke
    Warrior
    • Dec 2015
    • 256

    #2
    What barrel length are you shooting these velocities from? Would seem within reach to get 2500-2550 from a 123gr, and 2650-2700 from the Lapuas, even from an 18" barrel. What do the stats look like at those velocities?

    Comment

    • Sticks
      Chieftain
      • Dec 2016
      • 1922

      #3
      18" Barltein. Hornady Black is 2475 fps average consistent on a Magneto speed, and my reload testing with three different powders got me the same good accuracy node, around the same average velocity mid 2470s).

      Based on AA reloading book for 2230 and 2520, I should be able to hit the max 2680ish.
      Sticks

      Catchy sig line here.

      Comment

      • StoneHendge
        Chieftain
        • May 2016
        • 2009

        #4
        The rabbit hole has a fork in the tunnel - have you tried 123 Scenars? Best BC of the 123s. If I recall correctly from when I ran out some modeling, the 123s caught up to and began to outrun the 108s around 800 yards for my 18. I was going to pursue them, but then Grafs had that great deal on the 120s.
        Let's go Brandon!

        Comment

        • rwh
          Warrior
          • Jun 2014
          • 188

          #5
          My experience with the 108 and 123 scenars was in a 24 inch barrel. I was able to get the kind of velocities you are looking for with the 108s and the ballistics were pretty even out to 300 yards, but after that the higher BC on the 123 overcame the velocity advantage on the 108. My experience was that the 108 scenar over N133 produced awesome and consistent accuracy out to 300 yards. The downside was that I had problems with cycling the action with fast powders and light bullets in my grendel. There wasn't enough pressure left by the time the bullet reached the gas port for reliable cycling. You may have better luck with a shorter barrel. The 108 scenar is a great bullet and well worth a try.

          Comment

          • Kilco
            Chieftain
            • Jan 2016
            • 1201

            #6
            I've been playing around with the 108 Scenar and ARCOMP lately... very fun combo..

            These 108 Scenar are LONG!! Quite a bit longer than the 123 eld-m.

            Comment

            • Arkhangel5
              Warrior
              • Apr 2016
              • 229

              #7
              I will offer a different view.

              I too read LRR's insight to using 108 class bullets. I liked the idea of higher speeds and flatter trajectory for competition. I tested it and it works.

              Why dont I use a 107/8 in competition? The point of impact is way different that my 123 loads, as in 3 moa difference windage wise vs the 123.

              I use my rifle hunting, and the 123 hunting ammo hits almost to the same POI as my regular match load.

              Dont want to have to remember diff POI's, so all my loading is standardized to 123gr bullets.

              SY

              Comment

              • Sticks
                Chieftain
                • Dec 2016
                • 1922

                #8
                Originally posted by rwh View Post
                My experience with the 108 and 123 scenars was in a 24 inch barrel. I was able to get the kind of velocities you are looking for with the 108s and the ballistics were pretty even out to 300 yards, but after that the higher BC on the 123 overcame the velocity advantage on the 108. ...
                Having an even higher BC on a 123 (.527 G1 - vs. .506 G1 on the ELD) I don't see it out performing the 108 at 300. I am pretty sure these are the same environmentals that I used for the other two. I doubt that I am going to get more speed out of Lapua so I used the same MV as my reloads and Hornady factory.

                100 -0.0 -0.0 0.2 0.6 2336.6 1490.8
                200 -0.5 -3.6 0.4 2.7 2198.2 1319.4
                300 -1.3 -14.3 0.6 6.1 2064.8 1164.2
                400 -2.3 -33.2 0.8 11.3 1936.1 1023.6
                500 -3.4 -61.4 1.0 18.2 1811.6 896.2
                600 -4.6 -100.3 1.3 27.0 1690.9 780.8
                700 -6.0 -151.3 1.5 38.1 1573.8 676.4
                800 -7.5 -216.3 1.8 51.7 1460.3 582.3
                900 -9.2 -297.7 2.1 68.0 1350.7 498.2
                1000 -11.1 -398.2 2.4 87.4 1245.7 423.7

                Originally posted by Arkhangel5 View Post
                I will offer a different view.

                I too read LRR's insight to using 108 class bullets. I liked the idea of higher speeds and flatter trajectory for competition. I tested it and it works.

                Why dont I use a 107/8 in competition? The point of impact is way different that my 123 loads, as in 3 moa difference windage wise vs the 123.

                I use my rifle hunting, and the 123 hunting ammo hits almost to the same POI as my regular match load.

                Dont want to have to remember diff POI's, so all my loading is standardized to 123gr bullets.

                SY
                I don't hunt anything but paper and steel, so bullet weight is a non issue for me. Different bullet, I re-zero.

                This is all presuming that I get an accuracy node at the high end of the velocity like I did for the ELD. If I am punching consistent .5 MOA but the bullet is only plodding along at 2450 to 2500, it's not worth it.
                Last edited by Sticks; 10-27-2017, 07:30 PM.
                Sticks

                Catchy sig line here.

                Comment

                • Arkhangel5
                  Warrior
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 229

                  #9
                  Sticks,
                  Totally understood.

                  I dont think you will have a problem with accuracy or speed, your setup is close to mine, barrel length wise.

                  I was over 2600fps easily and had the accuracy I was looking for. I already had a lot of 123gr bullets and just didnt want to stock up on another.

                  SY

                  Comment

                  • StoneHendge
                    Chieftain
                    • May 2016
                    • 2009

                    #10
                    Instead of looking at total drop at a certain distance, you should look at the angle of drop. Total drop is theoretically 100% predictable. The only thing stopping you from hitting a long range targe 100% of the time on a windless day is you, your rifle or your ammo. There will be a point where a heavier bullet seems like it is being outperformed by the lighter, but it actually isn't. The steeper the angle of drop, the smaller the margin of error for making your shot. A faster low BC bullet will be flatter early on but will drop faster at range. There will be a point where it may not have dropped as much as the slower high BC bullet, but it will be dropping faster. If banging a plate of steel at range, your margin for error will be lower. If that makes sense!
                    Let's go Brandon!

                    Comment

                    • Sticks
                      Chieftain
                      • Dec 2016
                      • 1922

                      #11
                      It does...and you are an ass.

                      Thank you for bringing that up. I'll have to look at the max ord for the theoretical.
                      Sticks

                      Catchy sig line here.

                      Comment

                      • StoneHendge
                        Chieftain
                        • May 2016
                        • 2009

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                        It does...and you are an ass.

                        Thank you for bringing that up. I'll have to look at the max ord for the theoretical.
                        Lol - I'm into self flaggelation. I've been going through such a heavy debate with myself with 130s vs 140s with me S'more that I'm trying some different primers to see if one can pull from the pack.
                        Let's go Brandon!

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          #13
                          108gr Scenar is the same form factor as a 123gr Scenar, with less lead inside.

                          You can also point the bullets.

                          I was looking at the 107gr SMK, which seems to have a much higher BC than stated by Sierra. Litz testing on it showed it to be about like a 123gr SST.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

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