Terrible groups

[todd458]

[howl]

Flyers in same orientation to main group?

[Kilco]

Sounds like something is loose. I would deff check the scope itself and the mounts.

Even rack grade barrels will shoot that stuff 1-1.75 moa, that barrel is capable of sub moa i assure you.

I would also step back to 100 yards to eliminate any environmental variables

[StoneHendge]

Is there any patterning or do most come in around zero with the flyers?

[Sticks]

Who built the rifle?

Specs on upper, gas block, BCG, muzzle device, scope mount, and scope.

Pictures of your targets?

Are you using a bipod, sled, bags...?

Are you rebuilding or adjusting your shooting position after the flyer?

[LR1955]

So I just got my new Grendel . Custom build 20 incn Bartlein barrel. I shot approximately 60 rounds of a combination of 123 grain SST and 123 Hornady Back. My groups were all over the place at 200 yards. The gun came in zeroed at 100 with targets . The SST seem to definitely shoot better, but could not get better then a 3 inch group. My 223 consistently shoots sub MOA at 200 with 69 grain Sierra match King. The builder shot .45 at 100 with the 123 grain SST. It’s almost like every 3 or 4th shot was a 4 inch flyer. I truly want to think that the ammo was all over the place, I just can’t believe that I was pulling shots like that. I know it’s hard to answer without seeing the gun or watching me shoot it, but anything that you all could pull out of the hat that may make me realize something I would appreciate. Thanks

todd:

Can you call your shots and if so, how well?

No one can tell if you are causing the problem by watching you unless they use ball and dummy exercises. Then it would be obvious to you if you were the culprit.

The rifle can't count so the notion that every third or fourth shot the bullet sails out somewhere is unlikely. More likely is that you expect it to happen so your attention becomes focused on the expected poor results instead of taking a good shot. May want to just focus on making a good shot.

A 'flyer' is a bullet that wasn't made properly and so it goes its own way. Common when guys cast bullets that have air voids that put the bullet off balance. Extremely uncommon with commercial bullets. You don't have 'flyers'.

Could well be the guy who made the upper didn't do a good job or had a bad barrel. Not many people sell high quality uppers that shoot well. To me though, poor quality with your upper is less likely but not out of the question. BTW -- I take it you have seen some markings on the barrel that indicate it is a Bartlein? Just asking.

Common procedure is to make sure everything is tight and your sighting system functions via a box drill.

I would load up fifteen rounds with the 120 grain Sierra Match King and shoot three groups of five at 200 yards. I trust that bullet to perform with any decent barrel.

If the results are the same with the 120 Match Kings, have someone you know to be a good marksman shoot the rifle with the same loads.

Or you can have someone do some ball and dummy with you so you can see for yourself what you are or aren't doing when you pull the trigger.

LR55

[Kswhitetails]

[LR1955]

55-
I had to look up “ball and dummy”. And I’m embarrassed to say that it wasn’t anything at all like I was imagining…

Coincidentally, I use this drill with my son, when shooting the 44 magnum Henry. The 44spl light loads tell him more about himself than I can, and he seems to get quite a lot out of that. Truth be told, I just do it for the fun of watching him flinch. I’m a bad dad.

I’d never heard the actual term, good to know.

KSW:

Am convinced that if guys used this technique when they have problems like Todd is having, that they would be able to figure out if the problem is them or their equipment. Its also a great way to learn how to call shots.

LR55

[bj139]

My 223 consistently shoots sub MOA at 200 with 69 grain Sierra match King.

I thought this would eliminate any problems with the shooter.

[LR1955]

I thought this would eliminate any problems with the shooter.

bj:

Sure does. With his .223.

Sometimes when guys go to a different rifle and cartridge, bad habits can pop up again.

With the Grendel, I believe some folks assume it will perform as good as the best bench rest rifles made without having to focus on their skills just as much as with proven rifles and cartridges they shoot. Go into a testing session with that assumption and a person is heading for trouble. Sure, his problems may well be related to his ammo and equipment but given what he said about his equipment, I doubt it. More likely ammo than barrel or other parts but most likely the shooter. Ball and Dummy exercise will definitively prove if the problem is shooter or material related.

That said, I have done Ball and Dummy with riflemen and have seen their barrel move about an inch when they jerked the trigger. They said they didn't see anything. Probably true because after that I shifted my vision to their eyes and sure enough, they closed them just prior to jerking the trigger. No wonder they didn't see the barrel move.

Anyway, the topic is about todd's problems and not marksmanship exercises. Am sure he will get them worked out to his requirements.

LR55

[bj139]

bj:

Sure does. With his .223.

Sometimes when guys go to a different rifle and cartridge, bad habits can pop up again.

With the Grendel, I believe some folks assume it will perform as good as the best bench rest rifles made without having to focus on their skills just as much as with proven rifles and cartridges they shoot. Go into a testing session with that assumption and a person is heading for trouble. Sure, his problems may well be related to his ammo and equipment but given what he said about his equipment, I doubt it. More likely ammo than barrel or other parts but most likely the shooter. Ball and Dummy exercise will definitively prove if the problem is shooter or material related.

That said, I have done Ball and Dummy with riflemen and have seen their barrel move about an inch when they jerked the trigger. They said they didn't see anything. Probably true because after that I shifted my vision to their eyes and sure enough, they closed them just prior to jerking the trigger. No wonder they didn't see the barrel move.

Anyway, the topic is about todd's problems and not marksmanship exercises. Am sure he will get them worked out to his requirements.

LR55

Maybe.

I am betting on scope or mounts as Kilco and Sticks said.

[StoneHendge]

Without seeing the groups, I found that I was I would always blow my fourth shot when I had three good ones going. Complete choke job. Then I realized what I was doing. If a group was low and right of the bullseye, I was actually jerking low and right on release. After all, why should I aim at the bullseye if the group is low and to the right! The fifth would usually go back to the main group once the choke job was out of the way.

Then, upon realizing what I was doing, I came up with a solution. Jerk away from the group to compensate for jerking towards the group! Luckily, I figured that one out quickly.

[LRRPF52]

Shooting tight groups with 69gr SMK is very easy and forgiving.

Shooting 123gr from the same rifle frame is a bit harder to do, as it is less forgiving of errors in fundamentals.

Bartlein barrels are some of the most accurate I've shot over the years, to include shooting .260 Rem and 6.5 Grendel.

I've lost count of how many rounds I was putting through the same hole at 100yds with a 20" PF 6.5 Grendel/Bartlein.

[AZBackcountry]

As you've read. Make sure it isn't you. My family has someone behind then load there firearm at least once a month to check flinching.

Check everything for proper INCH pounds torque tight in the scope mount per manufacture specs.

I have a '70s 3X9 Bushnell with a weak reticle return spring after 40 years that started doing the same thing as you're talking about. I ASSUME that your optics are new, but you can still get a lemon. Swap scopes.

GOOD LUCK and tell us how things are going.