Hornady American Gunner compaired against Hornady Black

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  • NugginFutz
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 2622

    Hornady American Gunner compaired against Hornady Black

    Well, I just picked up a box of the American Gunner (sorry Randy, but this one is going to research).

    IMG_2847.jpg

    What follows began as an initial assessment of the American Gunner 6.5 Grendel ammunition from Hornady, but morphed into a side by side comparison of the American Gunner, in the previously unknown 123 HPBT, vs. the Hornady Black, in 123 ELD-M.

    First, I have to say that the American Gunner, for an affordably priced $0.75 per round, is surprisingly consistent in terms of seated length and concentricity. Bullet weight is right at 123.0 gr. The projectile appears very similar to the Nosler Custom Comp’s I’ve shot (1000’s) and the Ogive is definitely further forward than the ELD-M. This suggests an inferior BC to the ELD, but range day will yield more data.

    Available at $1.05 per round ($0.85 on sale), the Hornady Black’s 123 ELD-M projectile is noticeably sleeker, with what appears to be a Hybrid Secant Ogive. This translates into a relatively high BC, advertised by Hornady at a realistic .255 G7. It is noteworthy that Hornady has been using Doppler Radar for the last few years, which has provided them with remarkable capabilities to observe external ballistics and in determining actual BC.

    For the direct comparison, I randomly selected 10 rounds of each and recorded COAL, BTO, Concentricity, Bullet weight and Charge weight. (For the last two, I only pulled a single sample of each.)

    First, the glamour shots…

    Here are, left to right, the now discontinued 123 Amax, the 123 ELD-M and the 123 HPBT.
    Note the darker “Heat Shield” tip of the ELD, and the more pronounced Ogive of the BTHP.

    IMG_2845.jpg

    Both the ELD and the BTHP weighed in at exactly 123 grains.

    Next, I examined and weighed the powder charges. I first noticed that the powders look to be the same, based on appearance. The American Gunner had a charge of 29.8 gr and, interestingly, the Hdy Black a charge of 28.8 gr, one full grain less. Chronograph testing to follow...

    Below are the two samples, with an inset of a sample of CFE223 for contrast.
    IMG_2839 copy.jpg

    I noticed that the CFE looks more uniform than the powder in either of the two Hornady loads, so I suppose the only thing I can conclude is that we can confirm what we probably already knew, and that the powder is not likely CFE223.

    Finally, there is the length and concentricity data.
    The Base To Ogive (BTO) was determined with the Hornady Bullet comparator, using the #5 (260) bushing.

    Based on BTO, both the BTHP and the ELD-M were seated very consistently. COAL? Not so much, but well within SAAMI specification and almost .010” less that “magazine length” of 2.250”. All measurements are in inches.

    American Gunner Black ELD M
    BTO COAL Conc. Sample BTO COAL Conc.
    1.703 2.242 0.001 1 1.666 2.242 0.002
    1.703 2.247 0.001 2 1.666 2.242 0.003
    1.703 2.243 0.001 3 1.666 2.243 0.002
    1.703 2.242 0.0035 4 1.666 2.243 0.0035
    1.702 2.240 0.002 5 1.666 2.243 0.0035
    1.702 2.243 0.002 6 1.666 2.243 0.0035
    1.702 2.244 0.003 7 1.666 2.244 0.003
    1.702 2.243 0.001 8 1.666 2.244 0.003
    1.701 2.242 0.003 9 1.667 2.243 0.002
    1.701 2.243 0.004 10 1.667 2.244 0.002
    1.702 2.243 0.002 Average 1.666 2.243 0.003
    0.0362 0.000 -0.001 Variance -0.0362 0.000 0.001
    At 0.036” longer than the ELD, the BTO of the BTHP comes as no surprise. On the other hand, that both COAL’s average out the same does come as a bit of a surprise, given the two different bullet types.

    The real eyebrow raise comes when you look at the concentricity numbers. The so-called everyday ammunition is actually a bit straighter than the Black ammunition. Curious, I checked the remaining ten rounds from the same box of Black and found similar results. The only take away I have from this, is that the use of the ELD-M bullet used in the Hornady Black does not necessarily equate to “Match Grade” ammunition – just the use of some “match grade” components.

    Weather permitting, I will be at the range, this weekend, with both the American Gunner and a chronograph. I’ll also shoot some more of the Hornady Black over the chrony for a MV comparison. We have steel plates out to 750 yards and, if freshly painted, I can get some drop data on both rounds to try and estimate the BC of these new BTHP’s. Or, Hornady could save me the trouble and just publish the data.

    Just a final thought - when I read some people saying there is no 6.5 Grendel to be found, I have to think to myself "What dark closet are they searching in?" With no particular effort, I have 100's of loaded ammunition and thousands of components. And the selection only keeps getting better, thanks to the likes of Hornady, Federal, AA and the rest.

    IMG_2826.jpg


    Grendel Life is good and getting better!
    Last edited by NugginFutz; 11-09-2017, 08:38 PM.
    If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?
  • Six5x39
    Warrior
    • Sep 2017
    • 205

    #2
    Great write up ! looking forward for your range results !

    Comment

    • LRRPF52
      Super Moderator
      • Sep 2014
      • 8558

      #3
      I know that Sportsman's just started getting this load in, and some people had to ask for it from inventory in the back to get it.

      I'll look for it at my local Sportsman's, one of 2 within 15 minutes of me.
      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

      www.AR15buildbox.com

      Comment

      • 1911man
        Warrior
        • May 2015
        • 482

        #4
        Great write up NugginFutz, I am looking forward to your range test. I bought a box of this stuff and plan on trying it out in 4 different Grendel barrels.

        Comment

        • HillclimberCR500
          Bloodstained
          • Jun 2016
          • 54

          #5
          Looks like it is available now online 139.99 free shipping with no code. http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/s...3934/cat100114

          Comment

          • 1075 tech
            Warrior
            • Apr 2015
            • 681

            #6
            [QUOTE=LRRPF52;172013
            I'll look for it at my local Sportsman's, one of 2 within 15 minutes of me.[/QUOTE]

            Hmmm... Closest one to me is Morgantown, WV. Shouldn't take me more than 6 hours or so. lol. I'll have to wait until it is available through mail from vendors that will ship to those of us behind the wall here in New Yorkistan.

            Comment

            • Kswhitetails
              Chieftain
              • Oct 2016
              • 1914

              #7
              Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

              Comment

              • biodsl
                Chieftain
                • Aug 2011
                • 1714

                #8
                Thanks for posting this, NugginFutz. Some random thoughts:

                - Sad to hear this about the Black ammo. I haven't tried any yet but from everything I've read the accuracy and velocity isn't up to the old Amax load.
                - On the plus side, the Gunner sounds like a great replacement for Wolf MPT, only better. A little more money but at least you're getting Hornady brass.
                Paul Peloquin

                Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?

                Comment

                • NugginFutz
                  Chieftain
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 2622

                  #9
                  Originally posted by biodsl View Post
                  Thanks for posting this, NugginFutz. Some random thoughts:

                  - Sad to hear this about the Black ammo. I haven't tried any yet but from everything I've read the accuracy and velocity isn't up to the old Amax load.
                  Don't plan a funeral, just yet, Paul. On the contrary, the Black has shot quite well in one of my rifles.

                  (Below shot at 100 yards)





                  I just found it a tad surprising that the concentricity of the Black was a bit (.001") less straight. That doesn't necessarily translate into poor accuracy.

                  The bench will tell me how the A.G. stacks up, compared to the Hdy Black. If it shoots anything like it, I say sweet!

                  Originally posted by biodsl View Post
                  - On the plus side, the Gunner sounds like a great replacement for Wolf MPT, only better. A little more money but at least you're getting Hornady brass.
                  Yepper - a true Win-Win!
                  Last edited by NugginFutz; 11-03-2018, 03:41 PM.
                  If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

                  Comment

                  • Lone Hunter
                    Warrior
                    • Jan 2017
                    • 170

                    #10
                    The Hornady Black shoots really good out of my .264 LBC Barrel and the Mini Howa. So good in fact if I didn't get some loads worked up for them I would have had no problem using them to hunt with. They really impressed me,but, I like my reloads better.

                    Comment

                    • Dave_H
                      Unwashed
                      • Jun 2017
                      • 24

                      #11
                      Thanks for the great write-up. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. I bought a case of the Gunner ammo as soon as LRRPF52 posted that they had it for sale online. I'm anxious to run some over my Magnetospeed and I'll be following this thread to see your results.

                      Comment

                      • VASCAR2
                        Chieftain
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 6215

                        #12
                        Dave H are you having the ammo shipped to the store or your residence. I thought about buying some American Gunner online but I’d have to ship it to my residence. The nearest store to me is Lexington Ky which is over 300 miles. Next closest store is in Iowa. Wasn’t sure if Sportsmen Wharehouse would ship to a residence in Illinois.

                        Comment

                        • Dave_H
                          Unwashed
                          • Jun 2017
                          • 24

                          #13
                          I had it shipped to my place of employment. I have no idea if there is a store anywhere close to me or not, (I'm about 40 miles southeast of Indianapolis, Indiana) but I don't believe so. I think my shipping confirmation said 3-6 days and it was free!

                          Comment

                          • paulw
                            Bloodstained
                            • Jun 2017
                            • 79

                            #14
                            When I placed my order, shipping to the store was going to take a week longer than having it delivered to my home....both options were free, so it'll be here Monday according to the tracking info.

                            Comment

                            • VASCAR2
                              Chieftain
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 6215

                              #15
                              Thanks guys!

                              Comment

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