Why Oh WHy

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  • howl
    Warrior
    • Nov 2015
    • 236

    Why Oh WHy

    Why is it that when our military looks for a new cartridge or system, they never start with a blank slate? How can anything optimal be found when the basis has ties to the days of black powder?
  • BluntForceTrauma
    Administrator
    • Feb 2011
    • 3897

    #2
    Right?!?
    :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

    :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

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    • stanc
      Banned
      • Apr 2011
      • 3430

      #3
      Originally posted by howl View Post
      Why is it that when our military looks for a new cartridge or system, they never start with a blank slate? How can anything optimal be found when the basis has ties to the days of black powder?
      1. Depends upon what you mean by "blank slate."
      2. Any projectile launcher using solid propellant will have "ties" to the days of black powder.

      Comment

      • sneaky one
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2011
        • 3077

        #4
        Why look that far backward, when the modern 6.5 is right here ? I let go of the past- long ago. 1990. Modern 6.5 was the .260 in mid 1990's.

        Grr showed up in 2004. Creed showed up in 2011- nothing better than a .260...- Ask L52, he uses that.260 round for competitions around the globe .
        Last edited by sneaky one; 11-11-2017, 02:05 AM.

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        • IceAxe
          Warrior
          • Jan 2014
          • 168

          #5
          Not to say there isn't bias, but typically they start with an Operational Requirements Document or an ORD. All development is directly tied to that document. It sets any parameters or specifications for development.

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          • pinetreebbs
            Warrior
            • Nov 2013
            • 184

            #6
            Logistics.

            Legacy ammunition on hand, weapon training, existing troops trained on legacy weapons, a new weapon requires retraining and development of new training. Procurement, stocking and distribution of ammunition and spare parts for two weapons systems.

            These factors also make something like improved ammunition for existing weapons look more attractive than replacing an entire weapon system, including ammunition.

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            • LRRPF52
              Super Moderator
              • Sep 2014
              • 8569

              #7
              Originally posted by IceAxe View Post
              Not to say there isn't bias, but typically they start with an Operational Requirements Document or an ORD. All development is directly tied to that document. It sets any parameters or specifications for development.
              ^^^^^^ There are aspects to military weapons development and procurement that are far more involved than most people will ever know.

              At the end of the day, much of it can be personality-driven and either go south or really well, depending on what groups of people end up working together on a project and what types of vendors respond to the solicitation.
              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

              www.AR15buildbox.com

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              • howl
                Warrior
                • Nov 2015
                • 236

                #8
                It seems when a military has started with a blank slate, looking at various possible calibers or all of them, they end up at 6mm +/-. Sweden got 6.5mm at the beginning of the smokeless era. China more recently got...5.7mm I think?

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                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  #9
                  Originally posted by howl View Post
                  It seems when a military has started with a blank slate, looking at various possible calibers or all of them, they end up at 6mm +/-. Sweden got 6.5mm at the beginning of the smokeless era. China more recently got...5.7mm I think?
                  5.8mm.



                  FYI: In the 1890s, the US Navy started with a "blank slate" and created the 6mm USN round, for use in rifles and machine guns.



                  In the 1970s, the US Army started with a "blank slate" and created the 6mm SAW round, for use in a squad automatic weapon.

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                  • LRRPF52
                    Super Moderator
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8569

                    #10
                    6mm SAW pushing a 105gr at 2500fps doesn't need that long of a case to do that, but it looks like they wanted to use aluminum cases to reduce weight, and had to line the aluminum with coatings to prevent aluminum combustion.

                    That resulted in a case with a 2.580" COL.

                    That Ford Aerospace XM248 was a revolutionary LMG at every aspect of its design, with earlier versions designed to fire the 6x45 SAW. Its feed mechanism, recoil, overall layout, and parts count reduction were aggressive when looking at firearms design.

                    The more I study it, the more I really like what they were doing.

                    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                    www.AR15buildbox.com

                    Comment

                    • stanc
                      Banned
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 3430

                      #11
                      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                      6mm SAW pushing a 105gr at 2500fps doesn't need that long of a case to do that, but it looks like they wanted to use aluminum cases to reduce weight, and had to line the aluminum with coatings to prevent aluminum combustion.

                      That resulted in a case with a 2.580" COL.
                      There were two different case lengths, with two different cartridge overall lengths. The aluminum case version (below, right) was 6x50mm, whereas the steel case version (below, left, and in the photo in my previous post) was 6x45mm. The shorter version was also made with brass cases.



                      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                      That Ford Aerospace XM248 was a revolutionary LMG at every aspect of its design, with earlier versions designed to fire the 6x45 SAW. Its feed mechanism, recoil, overall layout, and parts count reduction were aggressive when looking at firearms design.

                      The more I study it, the more I really like what they were doing.
                      Indeed. A pity it didn't go further.

                      Comment

                      • sharky47
                        Unwashed
                        • Nov 2017
                        • 9

                        #12
                        Because the military procurement procedure has more to do with the correct application of hookers/blow + nepotism than with the actual need or merit of a given product.

                        The Pentagon has "lost" how many trillions of dollars lately - plus the disaster that is the VA - should show you how little they think of the actual soldier and his/her needs.

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          #13
                          Originally posted by sharky47 View Post
                          Because the military procurement procedure has more to do with the correct application of hookers/blow + nepotism than with the actual need or merit of a given product.

                          The Pentagon has "lost" how many trillions of dollars lately - plus the disaster that is the VA - should show you how little they think of the actual soldier and his/her needs.
                          From all of what I've been able to study over the past 4 decades, it's a little simpler than that when it comes to small arms, especially LMGs, and the OP's premise is a false one.

                          There have been several clean slate approaches to cartridge design based specifically on stated performance requirements, with a lot of engineer and ODT&E involvement, to include man-firing and testing in the hands of both new and salty soldiers alike.

                          The SCHV Rifle concept is one that actually gained traction and became the standard service rifle cartridge, despite all the odds stacked against it within Army Ordnance.

                          Institutional resistance based on logistics is a very real concern with many valid points, especially considering that our allies will be pulled into the selection of a new service rifle or machine-gun cartridge.

                          The .276 Pedersen, .224 SCHV, and 6mm SAW were about as clean slate as you'll ever see. Only the .224 SCHV rifle cartridge, the .222 Remington Special/AKA 5.56x45mm, was adopted en masse.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                          www.AR15buildbox.com

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                          • bj139
                            Chieftain
                            • Mar 2017
                            • 1968

                            #14
                            I just bought the last one of these. I couldn't resist the price.
                            I posted back in the spring how I would end up at 6x45.


                            This article influenced my decision. Now I need dies.


                            Would there be a potential safety problem or will 6x45 not chamber in a 5.56 chamber?
                            I'm thinking it won't.
                            Last edited by bj139; 12-17-2017, 01:51 AM.

                            Comment

                            • rwh
                              Warrior
                              • Jun 2014
                              • 188

                              #15

                              What's the cartridge in the middle? Looks like a 6x45 ackley?

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