Why is it that when our military looks for a new cartridge or system, they never start with a blank slate? How can anything optimal be found when the basis has ties to the days of black powder?
Why Oh WHy
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Originally posted by howl View PostWhy is it that when our military looks for a new cartridge or system, they never start with a blank slate? How can anything optimal be found when the basis has ties to the days of black powder?
2. Any projectile launcher using solid propellant will have "ties" to the days of black powder.
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Why look that far backward, when the modern 6.5 is right here ? I let go of the past- long ago. 1990. Modern 6.5 was the .260 in mid 1990's.
Grr showed up in 2004. Creed showed up in 2011- nothing better than a .260...- Ask L52, he uses that.260 round for competitions around the globe .Last edited by sneaky one; 11-11-2017, 02:05 AM.
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Logistics.
Legacy ammunition on hand, weapon training, existing troops trained on legacy weapons, a new weapon requires retraining and development of new training. Procurement, stocking and distribution of ammunition and spare parts for two weapons systems.
These factors also make something like improved ammunition for existing weapons look more attractive than replacing an entire weapon system, including ammunition.
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Originally posted by IceAxe View PostNot to say there isn't bias, but typically they start with an Operational Requirements Document or an ORD. All development is directly tied to that document. It sets any parameters or specifications for development.
At the end of the day, much of it can be personality-driven and either go south or really well, depending on what groups of people end up working together on a project and what types of vendors respond to the solicitation.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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Originally posted by howl View PostIt seems when a military has started with a blank slate, looking at various possible calibers or all of them, they end up at 6mm +/-. Sweden got 6.5mm at the beginning of the smokeless era. China more recently got...5.7mm I think?
FYI: In the 1890s, the US Navy started with a "blank slate" and created the 6mm USN round, for use in rifles and machine guns.
In the 1970s, the US Army started with a "blank slate" and created the 6mm SAW round, for use in a squad automatic weapon.
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6mm SAW pushing a 105gr at 2500fps doesn't need that long of a case to do that, but it looks like they wanted to use aluminum cases to reduce weight, and had to line the aluminum with coatings to prevent aluminum combustion.
That resulted in a case with a 2.580" COL.
That Ford Aerospace XM248 was a revolutionary LMG at every aspect of its design, with earlier versions designed to fire the 6x45 SAW. Its feed mechanism, recoil, overall layout, and parts count reduction were aggressive when looking at firearms design.
The more I study it, the more I really like what they were doing.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post6mm SAW pushing a 105gr at 2500fps doesn't need that long of a case to do that, but it looks like they wanted to use aluminum cases to reduce weight, and had to line the aluminum with coatings to prevent aluminum combustion.
That resulted in a case with a 2.580" COL.
Originally posted by LRRPF52 View PostThat Ford Aerospace XM248 was a revolutionary LMG at every aspect of its design, with earlier versions designed to fire the 6x45 SAW. Its feed mechanism, recoil, overall layout, and parts count reduction were aggressive when looking at firearms design.
The more I study it, the more I really like what they were doing.
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Because the military procurement procedure has more to do with the correct application of hookers/blow + nepotism than with the actual need or merit of a given product.
The Pentagon has "lost" how many trillions of dollars lately - plus the disaster that is the VA - should show you how little they think of the actual soldier and his/her needs.
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Originally posted by sharky47 View PostBecause the military procurement procedure has more to do with the correct application of hookers/blow + nepotism than with the actual need or merit of a given product.
The Pentagon has "lost" how many trillions of dollars lately - plus the disaster that is the VA - should show you how little they think of the actual soldier and his/her needs.
There have been several clean slate approaches to cartridge design based specifically on stated performance requirements, with a lot of engineer and ODT&E involvement, to include man-firing and testing in the hands of both new and salty soldiers alike.
The SCHV Rifle concept is one that actually gained traction and became the standard service rifle cartridge, despite all the odds stacked against it within Army Ordnance.
Institutional resistance based on logistics is a very real concern with many valid points, especially considering that our allies will be pulled into the selection of a new service rifle or machine-gun cartridge.
The .276 Pedersen, .224 SCHV, and 6mm SAW were about as clean slate as you'll ever see. Only the .224 SCHV rifle cartridge, the .222 Remington Special/AKA 5.56x45mm, was adopted en masse.NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor
6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:
www.AR15buildbox.com
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I just bought the last one of these. I couldn't resist the price.
I posted back in the spring how I would end up at 6x45.
This article influenced my decision. Now I need dies.
Would there be a potential safety problem or will 6x45 not chamber in a 5.56 chamber?
I'm thinking it won't.Last edited by bj139; 12-17-2017, 01:51 AM.
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