Motivated Moscow Match Redux

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  • Sticks
    Chieftain
    • Dec 2016
    • 1922

    Motivated Moscow Match Redux

    In our last story...http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...n-Moscow-Match

    A fellow member here (Kswhitetails) contributed some bullets to the testing on his own dime.

    All Hail Kswhitetails

    HAIL!


    HAIL!


    HAIL!



    ETA -
    Originally posted by HuntTXhogs View Post
    Originally posted by HuntTXhogs View Post
    Thank you HuntTxhogs for your testing and posting results.

    The protocols that were used - Pull down a Wolf Steel Case 100gr, dump the powder, chamfer the neck, put the powder back in, seat to safe COAL. With the Pull/Push, I seated the same as the Wolf 100gr COAL. On the heavier pills, I seated to a save Ogive that I am running.

    Please note - I was not having a good day, and should have stopped after my blind test (Hornady factory 123gr ELD Black - .465 MOA group on a cold clean bore). I was having a hell of a time getting a good final firing position, and had shot 10 rounds of 5, of my own load development prior to these. I had several awesome groups going, then pulled a "Stonhendge" .

    Results -
    Data and target 1.jpg
    Data and target 2.jpg
    *****NOTE****
    The push pull on the factory Wolf load was probably pushing my luck safety wise using a different 100gr bullet, and only going to COAL, not Ogive, nevermind I'm stuffing a .264 pill back into a steel case that was holding a .2619 pill. I did not re-size these cases as I did in my initial testing to try to match case neck tension. Duplicate this at your own risk

    *************

    The larger SMK and Lapua were loaded on top of 29.4 grains of Wolf Powder, and were very unpleasant to shoot (very sharp recoil). If I were to do that again, or wanted to use those bullets, I would be sizing the necks, and doing a proper load workup.

    I did not reset the chrono for the heavier pills in 5 round groups, and wish I had. I shot two different groups of the 123 Scenars to hope for a better group sample since the two 120's were ugly.

    The first 5 of the 123 avg was 2471, An ES of 21, and SD of 8. The second 5 avg was 2491, an ES of 58 and SD of 22.

    My testing has me convinced that it is worth the time and effort to stuff a quality pill back on top of the case and powder. Wolf Ammo - $0.24 per round delivered. Stuff a $.027 Hornady 123 grain back on top at the proper charge (load development), and you have a sub MOA steel cased round for $0.51 to $0.55 each, if you don't count your labor. Even stuffing a 95-100 grain back in without testing might be doable for good results - just play with the seating depth to see what your rifle likes. I don't know that I would go over 100gr on a different pill without proper load development.

    What says the Horde?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Sticks; 03-04-2020, 10:15 AM. Reason: Photo hosting is bitchy
    Sticks

    Catchy sig line here.
  • Kswhitetails
    Chieftain
    • Oct 2016
    • 1914

    #2
    Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

    Comment

    • CastorTroy
      Warrior
      • Mar 2015
      • 133

      #3
      out of curiousity, what length barrel are you using and what velocity are you getting from the stock wolf shit.

      in regards to hornady steel match, i hit them up a few months ago and they basically laughed at me

      Comment

      • Randy99CL
        Warrior
        • Oct 2017
        • 562

        #4
        I was wondering if this idea (wolf case/primer + name-brand bullets and powder) would work and am glad to see that it does. I like the idea of hunting and not chasing the brass.

        For me stage 2 would be powder-coating the wolf bullets, sizing them to .264 and working up good loads with the salvaged powder. I hate to waste anything.
        "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

        Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

        Comment

        • Sticks
          Chieftain
          • Dec 2016
          • 1922

          #5
          Originally posted by Kswhitetails View Post
          ...
          You may have mentioned it before, but what was the test platform?
          .
          Originally posted by CastorTroy View Post
          out of curiousity, what length barrel are you using and what velocity are you getting from the stock wolf shit.

          in regards to hornady steel match, i hit them up a few months ago and they basically laughed at me
          Rifle is a PF Neptune VIII, 18" Barlitien, PF Super Match NiB BCG, Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP MRAD. PSA lower, Magpul PRS, Geiselle SSA-E,.

          65* ambient and ammo, 4700' ASL.

          I did not do another Wolf blind string since the weather was virtually identical to the first outing.

          Wolf is Factory Steel Case ammo blind. Clean bore, cold.
          Series 2 Shots: 5
          Min 2542 Max 2575
          Avg 2562 S-D 12.3
          ES 33
          Series Shot Speed
          2 1 2542 ft/s
          2 2 2566 ft/s
          2 3 2575 ft/s
          2 4 2564 ft/s
          2 5 2567 ft/s

          Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
          I was wondering if this idea (wolf case/primer + name-brand bullets and powder) would work and am glad to see that it does. I like the idea of hunting and not chasing the brass.

          For me stage 2 would be powder-coating the wolf bullets, sizing them to .264 and working up good loads with the salvaged powder. I hate to waste anything.
          Randy99CL - My first run doing the load workup gave me two awesome nodes to work with using Hornady 123gr ELD and recycling the Wolf case and powder. Even this Redux probably would have been some excellent groups but as I stated in the opening, I was not having a good day. Since when a person is doing ladder loads they disregard the horizontal drift, and only focus on the vertical, there are multiple examples here that well could be .5 MOA or better groups. I am going to play around with seating depth in the higher node from my first outing.

          Within .3gr powder, I had a difference of 2fps average, and a SD of 7 and near 75fps faster than Hornady factory ammo. I am hoping seating depth will correct the pressure limits signs.

          Let me know if you want to wander down that powder coating road. I have est 700 Wolf Pills that I will not be using.
          Sticks

          Catchy sig line here.

          Comment

          • Randy99CL
            Warrior
            • Oct 2017
            • 562

            #6
            Originally posted by Sticks View Post
            Randy99CL - Let me know if you want to wander down that powder coating road. I have est 700 Wolf Pills that I will not be using.
            Wow, 700! Yes, I have been researching powder coating for a while and expect that it would work. It adds a couple of thousanths of a very tough coating that holds up to the resizing die and being fired (and rifled) at 2500fps.
            Actually, it works well with lead bullets. As long as it bonds to the jacket of those Wolves we're good.

            It will be a month or two before I'm ready to test this. I could do the coating as soon as I get a cheap toaster oven but am still setting up my reloading bench that will allow me to resize and load them.

            My plans are to get into bullet casting (with custom .264 molds) and powder coating is the revolutionary process that makes cast rifle bullets possible.

            Coating bullets is cheap and easy. Once I'm ready I'll contact you and we'll work out the details. I'll coat all your bullets, keep some and send the rest back to you.
            "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

            Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

            Comment

            • Sticks
              Chieftain
              • Dec 2016
              • 1922

              #7
              I [foolishly] bought a 500 pack of Wolf, and also got some off another member here that was unloading a bunch of ammo he had. Once I found out how crappy the groups were, and then the why...I am just going to pull down all of them (200 left), find the sweet spot for 123 ELD pills and load the rest back up for shooting matches, target, what ever.

              I need to get a .265 expander ball and dig out my Lee Loadmaster and process all the cases for neck sizing to get consistent neck tension. Right now I am running them through my RCBS bushing die on the singe stage, and any time I hit stiff resistance, I cull that case and move on. About a 25% attrition rate.
              Sticks

              Catchy sig line here.

              Comment

              • tommag
                Bloodstained
                • Oct 2015
                • 60

                #8
                Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
                Wow, 700! Yes, I have been researching powder coating for a while and expect that it would work. It adds a couple of thousanths of a very tough coating that holds up to the resizing die and being fired (and rifled) at 2500fps.
                Actually, it works well with lead bullets. As long as it bonds to the jacket of those Wolves we're good.

                It will be a month or two before I'm ready to test this. I could do the coating as soon as I get a cheap toaster oven but am still setting up my reloading bench that will allow me to resize and load them.

                My plans are to get into bullet casting (with custom .264 molds) and powder coating is the revolutionary process that makes cast rifle bullets possible.

                Coating bullets is cheap and easy. Once I'm ready I'll contact you and we'll work out the details. I'll coat all your bullets, keep some and send the rest back to you.
                I tried a cheap toaster oven and found the temps weren't even in different areas of the oven. I'd suggest a cheap convection oven for better results.

                Comment

                • Randy99CL
                  Warrior
                  • Oct 2017
                  • 562

                  #9
                  Originally posted by tommag View Post
                  I tried a cheap toaster oven and found the temps weren't even in different areas of the oven. I'd suggest a cheap convection oven for better results.
                  Hey, thanks! I will look for one of those.

                  So you have experience with PC bullets, what do you think of this project? Do you think that the coating will bond with the Wolf jackets?
                  "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

                  Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

                  Comment

                  • tommag
                    Bloodstained
                    • Oct 2015
                    • 60

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
                    Hey, thanks! I will look for one of those.

                    So you have experience with PC bullets, what do you think of this project? Do you think that the coating will bond with the Wolf jackets?
                    Yes, as long as they're free of any oils. A quick acetone wash will makes sure of that. Not all pc works with the shake and bake method. Harbor freight red is reported to work. I buy my powders from smoke4320 at cast boolits forum. He does the research and sells stuff that works. Pc costs so little that I don't mind paying a little bit extra. If you're not already a member, I'd suggest going to castboolits and reading the sub forum titled coatings and alternatives. Those guys pioneered pc long before the ammo manufacturers picked it up. Pc will definitely increase the diameter, up to .006, in my experience.
                    Last edited by tommag; 11-30-2017, 02:54 AM.

                    Comment

                    • tommag
                      Bloodstained
                      • Oct 2015
                      • 60

                      #11
                      It just occurred to me that some of that com bloc stuff has laquer on the brass. If that were on the bullets, it might interfer with the pc process.
                      If you try shake and bake, be sure to use the right kind of plastic bowl (recycling mark #5, I think.) Smoke sells airsoft bbs of the right kind of plastic to induce the static charge.

                      Comment

                      • Randy99CL
                        Warrior
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 562

                        #12
                        Thanks again! Yes I'd heard about the #5 plastic and had planned to try Harbor Freight red as it's right around the corner from me.
                        I might get a vibratory tumbler for applying the powder, I saw that some are pretty cheap.
                        And I've considered that the bullets would need an acetone wash and possibly an abrasive tumble to clean and roughen the surface for the powder.

                        Thanks for the tip to the forum, I'll definitely check it out. Lots to learn.
                        Bullet casting and coating is important to me as I'm retired with a small fixed income and 6.5 ammo is expensive (ignoring the mostly-useless Wolf). I have a lot more time than money and casting bullets can drop the price of a reload from forty+ cents to less than 15 cents each.

                        I want to get some Wolf to break in my new gun (and barrel). Last week I found a dealer that was selling 12 boxes for $60 with free shipping. Didn't have the money then, tried to find it today (to order on the 1st) and can't remember who it was. Oh well.
                        "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

                        Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

                        Comment

                        • Sticks
                          Chieftain
                          • Dec 2016
                          • 1922

                          #13
                          Kind of like reloading, often the cost of getting set up, and upgrades never gets paid off from the money that you think you are saving. Be careful.
                          Sticks

                          Catchy sig line here.

                          Comment

                          • tommag
                            Bloodstained
                            • Oct 2015
                            • 60

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                            Kind of like reloading, often the cost of getting set up, and upgrades never gets paid off from the money that you think you are saving. Be careful.
                            There is a boat load of truth in that statement.

                            Comment

                            • ItsRainingLead
                              Unwashed
                              • Nov 2017
                              • 18

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                              Kind of like reloading, often the cost of getting set up, and upgrades never gets paid off from the money that you think you are saving. Be careful.
                              I'm just getting into reloading and have resigned myself that. I figure if I start reloading early enough in my shooting life, shoot a fair amount of times per year, and literally keep the same equipment until it's time for me move onto the next world - maybe I will have broken even. I think reloading simply becomes another hobby, and 'saving money' is just like justifying buying another gun for whatever reason.

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