Best Optic for a Grendel ?

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  • kansas
    Bloodstained
    • Nov 2017
    • 65

    Best Optic for a Grendel ?

    What is the best optic for a grendel ??

    That's about like asking "what's the best foot wear for a human ?"

    Are you climbing a mountain? Are you going on a creek walk? Are you going dancing? Are you male or female?
    Before you buy your footwear you need to determine how you will use them!

    No different for the optics for your grendel ... how will you use it ?


    ==
    When I first got my 6.5G(18) back in early 2016, I was trying to "replace" the Sig762(16) I had sold. When I got the Sig, I was hoping it would be dual purpose, both short distance hunting and long distance target shooting. So I wanted the 6.5G(18) to do the same.

    So, for most of the first year I had the 6.5G(18) I used it for hunting/critter control.

    And mostly I had a Zeus 100mm 4x 640(60) on it. Here it is side by side with the 5.56(18) (the 5.56 is to the rear) ... I had the same model Zeus Pro on both of them at that point.



    Issues with the Zeus were that is was a bit heavy, and the 4x magnification was too much. There were times I was swinging it around trying to see yotes I knew were right near me. They didn't all get away ...



    ==
    One night, I was overwatching the chicken coop with the 6.5G(18) on a tripod and a opossum headed in towards the coop ... bang, bang, Down. I decided to keep waiting and watching and within 5m a Coon headed in to the same spot. Maybe he wanted to find out what was going on. Bang, down. These were 70yd shots off the tripod point blank range, though the critters were within 50yds of the coop and despite our electric fence etc. I still worry that critters could get in ... they destroy our neighbors chickens year after year ... three neighbors have lost all their chickens in the last year ... one lost 22 (he says to a coon) 2 months ago. I take my coop defense seriously.



    I sold the Zeus Pro about Feb 2017 and briefly tried a Burris xtr2 1.5-8x cq mil scope. Here we are at the 500yd firing point (FP). On Manfrotto M190 tripod with 322rc-2 joystick mount.

  • kansas
    Bloodstained
    • Nov 2017
    • 65

    #2
    == continued due to length

    Thru lens pic of the target area at 500yds



    What I liked about this optic was the dual focal plane (the circle dot is SFP, the reticle is FFP). I thought it could be a dual purpose optic.



    But what I didn't like was the lack of parallax adjustment. Also, I realized I wanted to get out to 900yds and this was not enough optic to get me there. I now have it on my "test" rifle a ruger "yute" model .308WIN. I'm currently shooting subsonic thru that setup.

    ==

    So around May 2017 I put a Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil on the 6.5G(18) ... this is more like it !!!



    On the left is the 6.5G(18) with the 3-15x on the M190 tripod at the 500yd FB ... that is the .300WM(24) to the right on M055 with xtr2 5-25x scr-mil.

    I like the 3-15x on the 6.5G(18) it is shorter and lighter than the 5-25x and yet can get me to 900yds without a struggle. Also, with the 3x minimum, it is still useful for hunting though I haven't used it that way yet.

    I like the scr-mil reticle a lot ... (I like a Night Force one a little better ... I'm still trying to decide about H58 / H59 style reticles ... I do have one) ... but I like the scr-mil ... I have one in the xtr2 3-15x and the xtr2 5-25x.

    Comment

    • kansas
      Bloodstained
      • Nov 2017
      • 65

      #3
      == continued due to length

      So to get to 900yds at night with the 6.5G(18) I decided I needed to go to a thermal clipon. So I tried two of them side by side for a couple of months.



      On the right is the 5.56(18) with the Trijicon SNIPE. On the left is the 6.5G(18) with the BAE UTC-x. Both have BAE OASYS cores, though the SNIPE has the 12um and the older UTC-x has the 17um. I wanted to keep them both, but I could not find the funds, so I wound up sending the SNIPE back and keeping the UTC-x. But I stil may get a SNIPE one day. For out to 500yds maybe 600yds it is fine. I had the xtr2 1.5-8x scope on the 5.56(18) at this point and I cranked to 8x on the day scope and I could hit the heated steel at 500yds just fine off the tripod.



      Note with all these night thru the lens pics ... I'm using my old camera phone and holding it manually, I have no mount for day scopes for the phone. So the pics are much worse that what the eyeball sees. Note the reticles are fuzzy, in real life they are crisp.
      ==

      Here is thru lens pic of the heated steel at 500yds with the 6.5G(18), xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the UTC-X with the day scope on 10x.




      I can get to 770yds on my land off the tripod ... this is from 685yds.

      Comment

      • kansas
        Bloodstained
        • Nov 2017
        • 65

        #4
        == continued due to length

        Mineral feeder at 405yds with the xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the UTC-X with the day scope on 15x.



        Recently my shooting buddy and I went out to a ranch farther West where they have targets at 100yd increments from 500yds to 1400yds. With the .300WM(24) we were able to get to 1400yds in the day ... with the 6.5G(18) 900 yds during the day ... and with both the .300WM(24) and the 6.5(18) we were able to get to 900yds (prone) at night off our heated steel targets (we brought our own so we wouldn't have to heat the land owners). And I was able to get to 700yds off the tripod at night.

        Shooting buddy setting up ... he is working with the .300WM(24) on M055 tripod. To the rear is a Leupold spotter on a tripod and farther out on the gun line is the 6.5G(18).



        Looking out towards the targets 500yds to 1400yds ... These are all NATO-E sized 19.5 x 40 ... that the landwoner has setup. The ones my buddy and I use are 66% sized (IPSC-D) 12-x24 silhouettes.



        In this pic you see the 600, 700, 800 and 900yd targets and that is me out there at the 700yd target applying a re-heating of the targets with a propane torch and you also see the buggy I was using to move around. The target farthest out and to the right is the 900yd target, it is fading.

        Comment

        • kansas
          Bloodstained
          • Nov 2017
          • 65

          #5
          Oh, that last pic is using my 5.56(10.3) with TEO 35mm 2.5x 640 on tripod as a spotter. We had the TEO cranked up to 4x digital, which makes it fuzzy. But, when I was on the spotter (and buddy on the WM) I could see the targets, I could see the misses, I could see the hits and I could see the bullet traces. I could see everything. So this set up WAS an effective spotter for out to 900yds. If I upgraded to the 60mm lens, ,it would be a better LR spotter, but it would be a worse coop defense thermal with 4.5x optical magnification versus the 2.5x on it now. And the 2.5x is borderline too much for coop defense.

          Here is pic of the 5.56(10.3) with the TEO 35mm 2.5x 640 ... and a shooting stick I use rarely ... for help hitting targets at over 100yds.

          we had the TEO mounted on the spotter tripod with a PIG saddle the night we used it as a spotter thermal our at SPR.

          Kind of like this ...

          Comment

          • kansas
            Bloodstained
            • Nov 2017
            • 65

            #6
            So, if you want to night hunt with your grendel, I recommend a dedicated thermal scope ... the magnification will be on the front end and the magnified image will give you 100% of your resolution. Most people like somewhere between 2x and 3x ... though even 1x works and 4x works ... personally I don't like over 3x ... but it depends on how open the terrain is. I live along a creek and unless I go up to the top of a hill ... I'm not seeing much beyond 200yds.

            The pulsar line either Apex or Trail all work. The 38mm or 50mm Apex ... I've had several of each and still have a 38mm as my loaner. And the Trails are even better, though more expensive. For a budget entry level thermal the APEX 38mm or 50mm get the job done. I would avoid the lowest end scopes with the fixed focus. Only the trijicons can make the fixed focus work.

            For the Trijicons, the mk2 line has 19mm and 35mm with 1.5x for the 19mm and 2.5x for the 35mm ... the newer mk3 line has 35mm at 2.5x and 60mm and 4.5x. The 19mm has 22 FOV, the 35mm has 12 FOV and the 60mm has 7 FOV ... and for me on my land with my use cases it would be inconvenient to go down to 7 FOV.

            Used pulsar APEX are around $2,500.

            Used mk2 19mm are mid $4,000s

            ==
            Now I've had 5 Armasight thermals as well, but with the FLIR merger, the Armasight line seems to be in flux, not sure what FLIR is going to do. So I sold all my Armasight thermals. Nothing wrong with the gadgets, but I worry about the support. It sounds like the CS Team were all sacked.

            But if FLIR gets their act together and supports the Armasight line, then I would be comfortable recommending them again. But right now I like the Pulsars for the budget minded and the Trijicons for those who want to optimize the image.

            ==
            As to thermal Clilpons ... I don't like them for hunting. They add weight up front, which is a bad place to add weight. And every 2x of magnification on the day scope (or digital) is costing you half your resolution ... so your 640 on 1x just became a 320 on 2x ... and you lost 75% of your pixels. You want 4x? That will cost you another 75% of the remaining pixels and your 320 became a 160.
            So for hunting inside 300yds ... I'd rather have the magnification on the front objective ... so I'm not zooming in on the TV screen and loosing my resolution. And with the dedicated scope my weight is back on the receiver.
            The use case for the thermal clip on in my book is for long distance. The UTC-x or the FLIR T-75 (and a few others) use the "tiny screen" trick and can support 10x, 12x, 16x, even 20x ... and then you can actually use the day scope reticles for long distance, just like you would in the day time ... but all these options are military clipons and they are not free ... over $10k in all cases. The only under $10k thermal clipon I would buy is the Trijicon SNIPE that can get you to 8x on the day scope.

            Now like the Pulsar 50mm clipon can do about 4x ... and that is typical of the low end thermal clipons ... so in front of an ACOG like scope they work fine. And if I only had 1 rifle, I would get a clipon like that. But I have 7 rifles, so I can keep a couple of them setup for dedicated night shooting. And the dedicated scopes have a better image and less weight and better balance.
            Last edited by kansas; 11-24-2017, 12:35 PM.

            Comment

            • LRRPF52
              Super Moderator
              • Sep 2014
              • 8569

              #7
              This is an excellent thread. Thanks for your shared experience here.

              I'm looking to get into yotes around here, as I found a place where they are like fleas.
              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

              www.AR15buildbox.com

              Comment

              • BluntForceTrauma
                Administrator
                • Feb 2011
                • 3897

                #8
                Wow. Great report. Thanks for info!
                :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                Comment

                • kansas
                  Bloodstained
                  • Nov 2017
                  • 65

                  #9
                  If you will hunt with your Grendel at night, then as I said above a dedicated thermal is to be preferred. This places the magnification on the front of the scope and you will get your full resolution for the best image. So, if I was going to switch back to using my Grendel primarily for hunting, I would put a Trijicon scope on it:



                  Shown is the Trijicon Mk3 35mm 2.5x 640
                  This scope can detect cattle at 2,200 ... they are blobs, but I know they are cattle due to other input.

                  The Trijicons use the 12um BAE OASYS cores ... which might be the best cores we normal civilians can buy. The Trijicon packages give us useful optics for hunting. The five mk3 reticles have 5, 10 and 20 mil subtensions, which are useful for rapid ranging of yotes and hogs and also useful for holding for movers ... like a critter moving at 24 MPH would be a 15 mil hold.
                  There are three white hot pallets and three black hot pallets as well as a seventh edge detect pallet. I mostly run on black hot #1, but switch to white hot in some conditions.
                  On my scope the 2x digital gives me 5x net magnification and when there is time I will switch to 5x for final shot placement. I've even switched to 10x for a couple of shots.
                  For long distance scanning the 5x is good and the 10x is sometimes necessary. The 10x is pretty fuzzy but still useful in some cases.
                  I've used the 10x for spotting for .300WM out to 900 yards on heated steel. The 10x can see the targets, the hits, the misses and the trace. Even on 4x digital, 10x net, it is a useful spotter.
                  I hope to buy another one - one day. I think having both a 19mm and 1 60mm might be optimal. Then I could use the 19mm for coop patrol and the 60mm for long distance spotting.

                  Comment

                  • kansas
                    Bloodstained
                    • Nov 2017
                    • 65

                    #10
                    Most nights when I go out on coop patrol, I just take the 5.56(10.3) with the mk3 or I take the .22lr(16) with the ODIN 17mm 1x 320 and no night vision or separate spotters.

                    But to go out and hunt all night, sometimes it is DARK (meaning no moon and/or sufficient clouds to obscure moon etc). In those cases we take our PVS-14s and our helmet mountable thermals our NODs (Night Observation Devices). The pvs-14 are best for navigating either on foot or on vehicles, either with glass or without. The helmet mountable thermals are best for spotting critters hands free while moving either on foot or on vehicles with no glass.

                    4 types of headgear shown. Ballistic helmet, Bump helmet, Crye Precision night cap and skull crusher.



                    Also in the pic are shown pvs-14 on ballistic helmet, ATN ODIN 17mm 1x 320 thermal monocular, a second PVS-14 and a PAS-29 thermal clipon. The PAS-29 clips on to a PVS-14 to provide a fused image.

                    Ideally, the well equipped night hunter has a pvs-14 on his head for navigation and thermal spotter and a dedicated thermal scope on his rifle.
                    There are a few cases where a night vision clipon can work. The people that use those shoot in more open terrain than I do and they use powerful illuminators and they worry about "no shoot" scenarios. Those are the sorts of consideration that lead some to use NV clipons for hunting. I've had a couple but I've replaced them with thermal, and at this point I'd rather spend my money on another thermal rather than an NV clipon, though I would not mind having one.

                    Comment

                    • kansas
                      Bloodstained
                      • Nov 2017
                      • 65

                      #11
                      Ballistic Helmet
                      Con - a bit heavier than the bump helmet, though by the time you put several pounds of crap on the helmets the difference between the ballistic and the bump isn't as much as you would think.

                      pro - I got it a size larger so I can wear thick balaklava under it in winter. It has no holes so it is drier and warmer.

                      ==
                      Bump Helmet
                      Pro - Lighter - and smaller so fits tight with no balaklava ... though I can wear the thin ones under it. Both helmets have a knob you can turn to increase tension, but the bump helmet knob you can pull to release the tension. That is a nice feature.

                      Con - Can't wear thick balaklava underneath ... has holes and lets in rain and cold. The bump is the warm weather helmet, the ballistic is the cool weather helmet.

                      night cap
                      Pro very light

                      Con - can only take one 14 ... no way to use counterweights or attach illuminators or viz lights.
                      ==
                      Skull crusher
                      Pro very light

                      Con - hurts your head (hence the name )
                      ==
                      All the headgear shown can be used with COMTAC 3 headsets, PTT and UV5R radios
                      ==
                      PVS-14s
                      Pro - flexible ... handheld, helmet mountable, weapons mountable behind a dot sight. Can take a 3x magnifier and be used for longer distance spotting or even 3x magnifier behind the dot sight. Long battery life. Can be used to shoot with ir-laser. Can be used to see critter eyeballs with ir-illuminators on. Ubiquituos, lots of people can work on them. Can see thru normal glass.

                      Con - can't see critters in all conditions, like in or behind vegetation even with illumination. Can't be used to see critters in shadows without illuminators. Don't like to be exposed to white light. Don't like to be dropped. Don't like weapon recoil.

                      Comment

                      • kansas
                        Bloodstained
                        • Nov 2017
                        • 65

                        #12
                        ODIN 17mm 1x 320 thermal
                        Pro - Has pvs-14 housing so can mount on pvs-14 dual mount. Can PID critters at 500yds, can detect out to 1200 (blobs). Can be used on weapon as dedicated thermal scope (has reticles). Works with the UNV battery pack.

                        Con - not the greatest image due to small lens and 320 format.

                        ==
                        PAS-29 COTI 10mm 1x 320 thermal
                        Pro - fusion - shoot with the pvs-14 and ir laser what the thermal can see. Detect out to 800yds, PID inside 300 yards. Small and light. Simple controls. Very fast system close in.

                        Con - Requires frequent battery changes. Not real useful beyond 300yds - detection only.

                        ==
                        IR-Illiuminators
                        Pro - on the helmet, they can be used in conjunction with the ir-lasers on the weapons to see the critters, the critter eyeballs and help washout any laser bloom.

                        Con - need to run them on min power and min focus to avoid washing out the image or the lasers.

                        ==
                        3 lumen viz lights
                        Pro - very useful admin lights. Useful as nav lights in woods. The green is amazing in the woods. The red is visible about 10yds. So these put out useful viz light at minimum power. I also carry one in my pocket at all times.

                        Con - Not sure there is one - for the purpose I use them for. They are NOT tac lights !
                        ==
                        ==
                        Important points to using head mountable NODs
                        01 - The counterweight on the back needs to match the weight on the front. The mounts and the NODs and their internal batteries might weight as much as 5 pounds in some configurations. So the counterweight needs to be as much as 5 pounds.
                        02 - Need to build up your neck muscles to take the weight and keep using them so your neck doesn't get tired. Build them up and keep them built up ... go out as much as possible !!
                        03 - Use filters on the backs of the NODs you wear on your head. This reduces the light hitting your eyes and reduces the headaches. Before I figured this out, I did have headaches. This is especially true for the thermal which is much brighter than the pvs-14s. Also less light coming out of the backs of the NODs makes you more stealthy.
                        04 - Flipping up to shoot takes time and if you don't turn off first, you are pointing viz light towards the critters. My tatm mount allows me to flip out so the rears of the NODs are still pointing to the rear, don't have to turn off.
                        Some mounts make more noise than others when flipping up also.
                        You can shoot with the ir-laser and the 14 without flipping up.
                        05 - Thermal can't see through normal glass, so is not useful looking through the windshield of a road vehicle. 14s can see through normal glass.

                        Comment

                        • kansas
                          Bloodstained
                          • Nov 2017
                          • 65

                          #13
                          So you can night hunt with a Grendel with nothing but one thermal scope on your Grendel.
                          The pulsars run $2,500 up to around $5,000
                          The used Trijicons start around $4,500 and run up to around $8,000

                          You can put a laser on your rifle and a PVS-14 on your head and hunt like that. Total cost of a solid setup around $5k.

                          ==
                          A full night hunting kit will include:
                          PVS-14
                          Thermal on rifle
                          Thermal spotter
                          ==
                          In cases whether you are extra worried about PID, due to presence of critters you cannot shoot, you may decide a combination of a thermal spotter and a NV clipon will work best for you. This will enable you to detect and ID the critters with thermal and do final ID with the NV clipon. People worry about neighbors dogs, counting points on the deer, telling foxes from coyotes, etc.

                          In no environment where I night hunt can we shoot deer, so we don't have to count points ALL deer are off limits. I spend a lot of time just watching critters with thermal. PID is not just a glance, if there is any doubt, I want to watch them move. That clears things up rapidly. If there is any doubt, don't shoot it. That is a simple rule.

                          But some people hunt in more complex environments and they need the alternative of NV clipon and thermal spotter. The basic hog hunter can get away with just one thermal on his rifle.
                          The current availability of the refurb PVS-30s puts a great NV clipon within the reach of many that would night hunt. I wouldn't consider anything else for a serious NV Clipon right now due to the low price and high quality of the PVS-30 refurbs. The Luna elir-3 is a great illuminator, there are others. I'd be shooting off a tripod with that setup.

                          Comment

                          • kansas
                            Bloodstained
                            • Nov 2017
                            • 65

                            #14
                            PR-Infrared, where I got my UTC-x is showing $11,900 for new FLIR T-75 ... those usually have shown price of $16,900. People I've talked to that have looked thru both say the UTC has a clearer image, but if the $11,900 price had been around when I got my UTC it would've been a TOUGH choice.

                            And depending on who you ask, max supported day scope magnification is between 10x and 16x ... but that still makes it a long distance thermal clipon, taking you well beyond hunting distances with plenty of magnification to spare.

                            So if you've been waiting for the prices to drop on the long distance military thermal clipons ... it is finally happening ! Do I need a T-75 as a backup?

                            Comment

                            • kansas
                              Bloodstained
                              • Nov 2017
                              • 65

                              #15
                              RAPTAR won't work on badger mount behind UTC ... UTC is too high.



                              So, trying 3 o'clock.

                              Here is my zeroing rig.



                              Steps:

                              1 - Zero day scope
                              2 - co-witness day scope to vis laser on the RAPTAR in the house (this gets the rough zero)
                              3 - co-witness day scope with ir-laser on the RAPTAR outside (using 14 to look thru the day scope) as far away as possible.
                              4 - Test distances for known distance objects

                              Actually the above process was faster and easier than I expected. At first I though the distances were a little short, then I realized the RAPTAR was set to meters
                              The distances are fine.

                              So next I will try it in the field with the UTC on there!

                              Comment

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