Best Optic for a Grendel ?

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  • bj139
    Chieftain
    • Mar 2017
    • 1968

    #16
    Wow. $17,000 to shoot coyotes.

    I guess if they are eating your cows it might be worth it.

    Comment

    • LRRPF52
      Super Moderator
      • Sep 2014
      • 8569

      #17
      Originally posted by kansas View Post
      RAPTAR won't work on badger mount behind UTC ... UTC is too high.



      So, trying 3 o'clock.

      Here is my zeroing rig.



      Steps:

      1 - Zero day scope
      2 - co-witness day scope to vis laser on the RAPTAR in the house (this gets the rough zero)
      3 - co-witness day scope with ir-laser on the RAPTAR outside (using 14 to look thru the day scope) as far away as possible.
      4 - Test distances for known distance objects

      Actually the above process was faster and easier than I expected. At first I though the distances were a little short, then I realized the RAPTAR was set to meters
      The distances are fine.

      So next I will try it in the field with the UTC on there!
      We used to zero our optics and IR aiming devices with laser bore sights in the Army.

      You can make a bore sight target with various offsets, including your 3 o'clock IR Illuminator/Pointer configuration, which is how we did it for the M4/203s.

      Just make a paper with grid lines on it correlating to the offset distance from bore to optic/laser parallel POA, and make sure to never laminate the offset paper (eye damage from laser reflection).

      Especially once you have your day optic confirmed zero, this can really aid in zeroing your ancillary electro-optical aiming devices for Own The Night configuration.

      Another really great post Kansas.
      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

      www.AR15buildbox.com

      Comment

      • J.Boyette
        Unwashed
        • Nov 2017
        • 8

        #18
        Great posts,

        with the BAE thermals we use swing out mounts for a Aimpoint T2 for normal use and swing the BAE infront of the AimPoint when needed. With the rifles on a monolithic upper we have up to 5 MOA swing between each flip of the thermal.

        do you get any POI shifts from the mounts?

        Thanks

        John

        Comment

        • kansas
          Bloodstained
          • Nov 2017
          • 65

          #19
          2017-12-10
          1830-1900
          40F
          5 MPH NW

          Goal: Check RAPTAR

          Environment: clear, stars, no moon, wind from NW.

          Equipment: 5.56(18), L&S 3-18x H58, PVS-14 mounted on rear of scope, later, UTC-x mounted in front. Manfrotto m055 tripod with 322RC-2 head.

          The pic shows all the gear but the UTC was not mounted during the zeroing process.



          Activity:

          STEP01 - Zero ir-laser to the reticle.
          I had already zeroed the day scope at 100yds. Badger finally sent me the correct screws to mount the RAPTAR mount to the scope rings, so I did that and mounted the RAPTAR, testing in the house revealed the lasers could all see past the bell of the UTC. In the RAPTAR the three lasers, the red viz, the ir-pointer and the LRF laser all shine thru the same aperture. Though from slightly different positions.
          So I had zeroed the xiz laser to the reticle in the house. That gets it close enough that when you go outside and try to zero the ir-laser at longer distance you can see it in the FOV of the scope.
          When mounted at 12 o'clock on top of the scope, the adjustments just happen to work just like most day scopes. Counter clock wise on the knob on the top of the RAPTAR is "up" CW is down. For the knob on the side, turning the top of the knob towards you is right and top of the knob away is left. So this is easy to remember! So, I powered on the 14. I pointed the reticle at a mineral feeder I knew to be 415yds away and cranked the magnification all the way up to 18x. I set the selector switch on the RAPTAR to IR-laser, which is one click CCW from off. Then adjusted the ir-laser on to the center of the reticle on the mineral feeder. I Had attached the pressure switch, so I was using that to turn the laser on/off. Then I hit the range button and read 378 and did a little arithmetic and got 415 yds ! Further more, I could SEE the distance on the back of the display with my left eye, without taking my right eye off the reticle on the target. I had not expected that !!!.
          I then checked a tree at 74 meters and another tree at 91 meters.

          STEP02 - Test with the thermal clipon
          Then I removed the 14 assembly from the back of the day scope.
          And I mounted the UTC-x to the front. I use larue rail clips, so I can feel the top to start the
          I re-lased the mineral feeder. This time, my eye was a little closer to the back of the scope and I could not quite see over the top of the turrets. I rechecked the two trees and they matched. So I was lasing targets with the RAPTAR with the UTC clipped on giving me 18x with the H58 reticle. This was the goal !

          I need to take it out to the pasture at our highest point, were I can lase a known object at 770yds

          Results/Summary: L&S says they will replace the M5B2 turrets I have for the M5C2 turrets for $220. The C2 turrets are lower, I bet I'll be able to see over them. I might do that upgrade. I was thinking about it anyway since I do not like the B2 elevation turret.

          Comment

          • kansas
            Bloodstained
            • Nov 2017
            • 65

            #20
            (sorry the RAPTAR is not on the 6.5(18) yet ... I am testing it on the 5.56(18) first ... but the RAPTAR is destined for the 6.5G(18) once I get the process worked out and get a second set of replacement rings)

            @John ... I do not experience any POI shift mounting the UTC-x clipon ... that's what I love about it the most !!! And we've run it on both a .300WM(24) and the 6.5G(18) out to 900yds day and night (night the the UTC-x) and no POI shift. The collimating lens on the back of the UTC-x is truly magic!!!

            In front of the aimpoints are you referring to UTMs or SKEETs? Those have diopters on the back end right, not collmating lens? If so, that could account for the shift. A purpose built clipon should have a collimating lens on back that can account for variations in alignment between the clipon and the day scope, up to a certain tolerance. The UTC-x is 1.31 center. My rings run from 1.33 center to 1.4 center and those are all working dead on.
            ==
            UTC on the .300WM(24)



            ==
            UTC on the 6.5G(18)



            ==
            ... make a bore sight target with various offsets, including your 3 o'clock IR Illuminator/Pointer configuration, which is how we did it for the M4/203s ...
            Aye, my PAQ-4C came with a manual and it shows several pages of boresight charts, so I got the idea and I have done this for the lasers on my carbines. But for the RAPTAR I want to "infinity zero" to the reticle. Which means I want to zero the laser pointer to the reticle as far out as I can. Which on my land for a hard known target is going to be 770yds. Once I can get over to a neighbors ranch I'll be able to get out to 1058yds.

            Comment

            • kansas
              Bloodstained
              • Nov 2017
              • 65

              #21
              I like the RAPTAR so much, I got two baby brother radiae. One for my shooting buddy and a backup for me.



              Though the RAPTAR has an ir-laser and the Radius has a viz laser, I zeroed the Radius to the scope reticle using the same process I used for the RAPTAR.

              01 - Mount Radius on the 12 o'clock mount over the scope
              02 - Activate vis laser in the house.
              03 - Co-witness to the scope reticle.
              04 - Mount the 14 scope adapter and the PVS-14 on rear of scope.
              05 - Move everything out side and setup.
              06 - Turn on the 14
              07 - Aim at mineral feeder 415 yds away.
              08 - co-witness the laser to the scope reticle.
              09 - Check the distance = 416yds
              10 - Check distance to fence post = 77yds (check)
              11 - Check distance to telephone pole = 106yds (check)

              It works!

              And just like with the RAPTAR, with my eye still on the target, I can see the distance with my other eye without moving.

              Comment

              • kansas
                Bloodstained
                • Nov 2017
                • 65

                #22
                Finally got one of the PVS-30 refurbs ... and gave up on trying to get the Federal load of the 130 berger bullets (I want to try those, but can't find them) ... so ordered another 400 ELD and that enables me to shoot up the remaining 200 123 AMAX.



                Oh, that's the 6.5G(18) on the left with the L&S refurb Mk6 3-18x tremor-3 and the PVS-30 in front.

                (the 5.56(18) on the right, with the Burris xtr2 3-15x scr-mil and the BAE UTC-x in front)
                Last edited by kansas; 02-04-2018, 02:13 PM. Reason: add words

                Comment

                • kansas
                  Bloodstained
                  • Nov 2017
                  • 65

                  #23
                  The 6.5G(18) has been taking a rest. I rotate active guns from month to month, mostly due to ammo rationing. I've finally built the 6.5G(18) ammo level up to 1,000+ rounds for the first time and plan to keep it there.

                  175 rds 123 AMAX
                  235 rds 123 SST
                  400 rds 123 ELD
                  200 rds 130 Berger

                  So the 6.5G(18) is now back on the active list.

                  ==


                  Scope is L&S 3-18x M5C2 T3. I had the scope rebuilt 2 months ago getting the M5B2 turrets replaced with the M5C2 turrets and the H58 non-illuminateed reticle replaced with Tremor-3 illuminated reticle. Basically a new scope as they replaced everything except the eyebox.

                  Rings are badger 1.375 center with RAPTAR ring cap on the front ring. And that's a RAPTAR ES on top. I use it solely as a range finder.

                  I switch the clipons around, but usually have the UTC-x on there as it can see the critters better in the woods around the coop.

                  I am zeroed at 100yds with the 123 AMAX. I am shooting it up and going with the 130 Berger (Federal load) as my new primary. The 123 SST will remain the Hog hunting round.

                  Comment

                  • kansas
                    Bloodstained
                    • Nov 2017
                    • 65

                    #24
                    Here is recent report on yote I got with the 6.5G(18) ...

                    ==

                    2018-03-05
                    2130-2230
                    30F
                    25 MPH W

                    Goal: Coop overwatch.

                    Environment: Wind still averaging 25-35 it dies down a bit, then it picks up a bit. Clear skies tonight, Orion to the West.

                    Equipment: I decided to bring more gun tonight. I am prepping for night walk this coming weekend so using 5.56(10.3) for that, so have it torn down cleaning. So took
                    6.5G(18), L&S 3-18x T-3, UTC-x RA{TAR. 123 AMAX. M055 Tripod with 322RC2 head.



                    Activity: Went out and setup tripod in the center of the building area. This offers fields of fire in all directions, between all the buildings: 415 meters up hill to the West, 1700 meters to the west, 250 meters to the S and 600 meters to the North. To the East is a wood and I can see critters about 200-250 meters into the woods depending on how large they area.
                    So, I was scanning about nucing and zooming in and out and checking distances with the RAPTAR and focusing. After about 30mins, I was still scanning and was on 3x so I had the widest FOV. I saw a fairly larger critter moving in the woods. When you see a critter in these woods, you see bits and pieces of it through the gaps in the vegetation so you can't usually tell what it is. I see a lot of deer traversing through there, so I figured it was a deer but it could've been one of my cows, they sometimes move along the banks of the creek back there. I continued to watch, but the critter must have gone behind an embankment about 100 meters into the woods and I could no longer see it. It was heading north towards the alfalfa patch. I scanned back and forth, from where I saw the critter - to the alfalfa patch, waiting to catch a glimpse of it. Eventually it appeared near the fence and approached the fence. I still thought it was a deer, but noted it was a small one. Then it passed through the fence (not over) and in to the open and starting trotting across the alfalfa patch now heading West. I could tell it was a yote by size and trot and tail. I used the "trap" lead. I estimated 110 meters and I was aiming slightly down so I held level with the jaw and fired right before the nose reached my cross hair. The front half of the yote went straight down. I checked the distance with the RAPTAR - it was 141 meters, farther than I thought! Then I took the setup in the house and grabbed the 4-wheeler to go check the yote. The alfalfa patch is on the other side of the creek and across a fence, so easier to get there on the 4-wheeler across bridge thru gate 1/4 mile away.

                    The entrance wound is on the neck.



                    The exit wound on the shoulder as I was on the critters front left quarter when I fired. The AMAX round still has a nasty exit wound on a yote.



                    He was a pretty scrawny yote, but it has been a cold winter with 2 weeks of sub 20F weather 24x7 and a week of ice also sub 20F. Distance to the coop from the gun on the tripod was 41 meters, and the yote was about 15 degrees to the right so just over 100 meters from the coop and heading towards the apple orchard in the general direction of the coop, but other side of the creek bed.

                    Results/Summary: Well 3x was plenty of magnification. But even though I know a lot of distances on my land, once they get out in the alfalfa patch ... an 18 acre flat field, there are few landmarks. I need to learn to push the range button before I shoot, that's why the dang raptar is on there. But this was the first critter I ever shot with it on there and I was focused on the critter. But I was out there practicing with it and checking ranges and seeing them with my support eye while keeping my aiming eye looking thru the scope. It can be done and I was practicing it. Just not once the yote showed up

                    Comment

                    • bj139
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 1968

                      #25
                      Nice hunting. The chickens are safer now.
                      Do you see any hogs where you are?

                      Comment

                      • kansas
                        Bloodstained
                        • Nov 2017
                        • 65

                        #26
                        Negatif, not many in Kansas, have to go to AR, OK, TX for hogs.

                        Comment

                        • kansas
                          Bloodstained
                          • Nov 2017
                          • 65

                          #27
                          2018-03-18
                          1200-1500
                          50F
                          10 MPF ESE

                          Goals: 6.5G(18) rezero

                          Environment: Overcast, small amount of mirage during most of zeroing, then a ton of mirage showed up. Mirage is good and bad. Wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.

                          Equipment: 6.5G(18), NF 7-35x Tremor-3, 123 AMAX, Bushy AE 1600

                          Activity: Setup at 91 meters and ran 5 rds off the tripod with the magnetospeed. The avg speed was 2422 with SD 12. Previous 5 rds was 2413 SD 12.5 So I split the difference with 2417 and SD 12.2.
                          Then zeroed at 100yds prone.

                          Then went to 500yds (known distance). Throwing dirt up in the high for wind direction. First it blew from 90 off the bullet path. Later it blew from 180 off the bullet path and after that the dirt went straight up and came straight down.
                          The mirage was boiling.
                          The orange dots I put in the center of the paper target were jumping around 0.2 mil in the reticle in all directions.
                          The wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.
                          AB said 3.7 up and I guess 0.2 right for wind.

                          First 5 rd group at the paper. Elevation is decent, but wind stringing me out.



                          Then 5 rd group at the steel. I remembered to paint it first.



                          Then went to 663 meters (unknown distance lased with Bushy). That's 725yds. AB said up 7.3. Krestrel said 5.5 MPH from 90 degrees off the bullet path or 0.6 right.

                          I could not see the target prone so switched to tripod sitting.



                          The mirage was still bad.



                          First round the dust was a few inches left and high. I reduced wind hold by .2 and elevation hold by .2 (5 inches) I'm shooting down hill but not sure by how much, but probably enough to make me a little high.

                          Second rd was hit, repeated, third rd was hit.

                          Results/Summary: The NF sure is good at seeing the mirage !!! Mirage is good as it gives you a good read on the wind. Mirage is bad because is makes the target jump around and it makes the target fuzzy. Backing off on the magnification reduces the fuzzy a bit. I think I read messing with the parallax can reduce the jumping around, but I messed with the parallax and I didn't see the jumping around stop. Will go hunt for those words.

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