Optics Selection

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  • jhoyda
    Bloodstained
    • Aug 2017
    • 59

    Optics Selection

    I'm in the market for a new scope on an 18" AR pattern Grendel. I have read every thread that I can find. I've determined two things:

    1) There are quite a few individuals here that seem quite knowledgeable regarding scope selection.
    2) Weaver and SWFA seem to be of reasonable quality for the price.

    I know I want to dip my toe in the world of first focal plane. I know I want a MIL reticle. Beyond that I'm looking for opinions.

    The Weaver Super Slam Series, 3-15x50 and 4-20x50, have piqued my interest as well as the SWFA 3-15x42. All are in the $600-$700 range.

    Any input is appreciated.

    Thanks
    Jim
  • Wafavre2
    Warrior
    • Feb 2017
    • 142

    #2
    Check out Vortex. Great quality for the price!

    Comment

    • LRRPF52
      Super Moderator
      • Sep 2014
      • 8569

      #3
      Selecting a scope for a semi-automatic or any self-loading firearm is a different affair than a bolt gun or any manually-operated action because of the multiple impact forces a scope endures on a self-loader.

      1. Initial recoil and resonant shock wave sent through the firearm, mount, and optics.

      2. Impact of the reciprocating mass at the travel limit of the parts, in the case of the AR15, this is the buffer bumper impacting the inner rear of the RET.

      3. Impact of the bolt lug faces into the barrel breech during the feeding cycle, right before locking into the extension.

      4. Impact of the carrier face into the rear face of the barrel extension (huge impulse).



      The larger the mass of the reciprocating parts and the higher the spring rate, the more abuse on 3 and 4.

      What the industry has found is that optical elements need to be permanently fixed within the tubes, otherwise gas guns beat them loose.

      There are only a few companies that do this, NightForce and the higher-end Vortex lines being the 2 that come to mind.

      If you skimp out and roll the dice with cheaper optics, you are likely to encounter tertiary impact generated damage to the internals of the scope.

      I've seen a lot of the lower mid-range scopes die, often with the ocular piece coming loose, reticles canting, side focus dying and causing a blurry image, lots of erector backlash, illumination modules quitting, things like that.

      I recommend the European approach to rifle optics when glassing the AR15 and AR10.

      Prepare to spend at least as much on the optics and mount as you do the rifle, if not 2-3x more.

      Nobody wants to hear that though, and most people roll the dice with $200-$400 scopes, hoping in one hand, and pulling the trigger with the other.

      If you're an occasional hunter, you will usually get away with it.

      If you shoot a lot of target, running 100rd+ range sessions long enough, you will see what I'm talking about, and any of the guys and gals that have been shooting for many years will confirm exactly what I've seen.

      There is no way around it, unless you go with one of the fixed power SWFAs that will take even .50 BMG semi-auto abuse and like it, but those scopes don't offer the hunter any flexibility in the low magnification range because they are fixed 10x.
      Last edited by LRRPF52; 12-08-2017, 03:37 PM.
      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

      www.AR15buildbox.com

      Comment

      • jhoyda
        Bloodstained
        • Aug 2017
        • 59

        #4
        Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
        If you're an occasional hunter, you will usually get away with it.

        If you shoot a lot of target, running 100rd+ range sessions long enough, you will see what I'm talking about, and any of the guys and gals that have been shooting for many years will confirm exactly what I've seen.

        There is no way around it, unless you go with one of the fixed power SWFAs that will take even .50 BMG semi-auto abuse and like it, but those scopes don't offer the hunter any flexibility in the low magnification range because they are fixed 10x.
        I was hoping you would respond. You are one of the "knowledgeable people" to which I was referring. I definitely fall into the latter category, I'm not a hunter. What do you have on your LaRue? Is it still wearing the Burris?

        Do you recommend dropping back to a second focal plane and spending a similar amount in the hopes of more robust internals?

        Comment

        • PVBoom
          Warrior
          • Oct 2017
          • 406

          #5
          Well, this derailed a bit. There are plenty of scopes robust enough for your purpose. The question that wasn't asked and should have been, and is number one everywhere else is "What is your intended usage?"

          The second question is "what is your budget?"


          Assuming you don't need to be over 9x and want better glass, then I would say SWFA SS 3X9X42 HD. In a quality mount. It's 50 rated also

          Read this. Its from a guy who owns a Grendel and knows a lot more about optics than most of us.

          Last edited by PVBoom; 12-08-2017, 04:11 PM.

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            #6
            Originally posted by jhoyda View Post
            I was hoping you would respond. You are one of the "knowledgeable people" to which I was referring. I definitely fall into the latter category, I'm not a hunter. What do you have on your LaRue? Is it still wearing the Burris?

            Do you recommend dropping back to a second focal plane and spending a similar amount in the hopes of more robust internals?
            I still have the Burris 1.5-6x on the LaRue, but it will be going to another rifle. The Burris with that reticle will be fine for hunting and use in my DM Course loaner rifles.

            The LaRue deserves more magnification, and will be getting my 5-15x44 Vortex Viper HS Tactical in LaRue LT-112 20 MOA slope QD base.

            I can't see well on 6x when trying to shoot small dots at 200yds, but it would be fine for hunting, as I was still able to get .67 to 1.15 MOA 5rd groups at 200yds with that set-up, which is plenty for shooting most of the plates that I shoot.

            I like a fine reticle with Mil hashes personally, and locking TGT knobs with capped elevation if I could get it.

            The ideal scope for me does not exist though, and I've used a boat load of different scopes recreationally and professionally dating back to the 1970s, starting with the Weaver 3x steel tube on our .270 Winchester Model 70.

            The ideal 18" Grendel scope for me would be a 1.5-12x30mm, locking low profile top turret with Vortex Razor zero stop, 8" OAL, MRAD version of the Vortex HS LR reticle, capped or low pro locking windage, heat-treated Titanium leaf springs for the erector, epoxied lens elements and tube sections, purged, HD glass or even synthetic HD optics, lo profile Side Focus, skeltonized top end brass alloy gears with PVD deposition coatings, illumination I can't discuss, and some other things.
            Last edited by LRRPF52; 12-08-2017, 04:15 PM.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • jhoyda
              Bloodstained
              • Aug 2017
              • 59

              #7
              Originally posted by PVBoom View Post
              Well, this derailed a bit. There are plenty of scopes robust enough for your purpose. The question that wasn't asked and should have been, and is number one everywhere else is "What is your intended usage?"

              The second question is "what is your budget?"


              Assuming you don't need to be over 9x and want better glass, then I would say SWFA SS 3X9X42 HD. In a quality mount. It's 50 rated also

              Read this. Its from a guy who owns a Grendel and knows a lot more about optics than most of us.

              http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=1262
              Yes, it has shot off on a tangent.

              After reading LRRPF52's reply my initial thinking was he is probably absolutely correct in the abstract. However, what do I care? This is a range toy with the occasional ground hog thrown in. If it breaks, I'll just send it in for repair. I'm really leaning towards the SWFA right now, I like the MIL Quad reticle.

              Comment

              • jhoyda
                Bloodstained
                • Aug 2017
                • 59

                #8
                Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                The ideal 18" Grendel scope for me would be a 1.5-12x30mm, locking low profile top turret with Vortex Razor zero stop, 8" OAL, MRAD version of the Vortex HS LR reticle, capped or low pro locking windage, heat-treated Titanium leaf springs for the erector, epoxied lens elements and tube sections, purged, HD glass or even synthetic HD optics, lo profile Side Focus, skeltonized top end brass alloy gears with PVD deposition coatings, illumination I can't discuss, and some other things.
                This is a level of optic knowledge I will never have, nor have the ability to discern the benefits!!!

                Talk to your banker, sounds like you need to start making scopes!

                Comment

                • Frontier Gear
                  Warrior
                  • Nov 2017
                  • 772

                  #9
                  If you shoot a lot of target, running 100rd+ range sessions long enough, you will see what I'm talking about, and any of the guys and gals that have been shooting for many years will confirm exactly what I've seen.

                  Prepare to spend at least as much on the optics and mount as you do the rifle, if not 2-3x more.
                  I understand and agree with all that you have said. Good optics are going to cost money. They are precision made devices.

                  If you're an occasional hunter, you will usually get away with it.
                  That's me. My family takes about three deer and an occasional bear per year. Add in some target practice, a few coyotes and water jugs for fun. My guess is that my hunting rifles usually see 100-200 rounds per year not per session.

                  All that being said, I only paid $200 for my 3-9x50 Grendel scope. For what I use it for, I really don't think that I'll have an issue with it. If I do, they will fix it for free.

                  It's a Redfield Revolution by Leopold. I've used them for a number of years now and have had to use their customer service twice (once was my fault and once was my son's fault). The scopes have never just "failed". Both times they have been very helpful, more than fair and good to deal with.
                  Engineer, FFL and Pastor

                  Comment

                  • J.Boyette
                    Unwashed
                    • Nov 2017
                    • 8

                    #10
                    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                    Selecting a scope for a semi-automatic or any self-loading firearm is a different affair than a bolt gun or any manually-operated action because of the multiple impact forces a scope endures on a self-loader.

                    1. Initial recoil and resonant shock wave sent through the firearm, mount, and optics.

                    2. Impact of the reciprocating mass at the travel limit of the parts, in the case of the AR15, this is the buffer bumper impacting the inner rear of the RET.

                    3. Impact of the bolt lug faces into the barrel breech during the feeding cycle, right before locking into the extension.

                    4. Impact of the carrier face into the rear face of the barrel extension (huge impulse).



                    The larger the mass of the reciprocating parts and the higher the spring rate, the more abuse on 3 and 4.

                    What the industry has found is that optical elements need to be permanently fixed within the tubes, otherwise gas guns beat them loose.

                    There are only a few companies that do this, NightForce and the higher-end Vortex lines being the 2 that come to mind.

                    If you skimp out and roll the dice with cheaper optics, you are likely to encounter tertiary impact generated damage to the internals of the scope.

                    I've seen a lot of the lower mid-range scopes die, often with the ocular piece coming loose, reticles canting, side focus dying and causing a blurry image, lots of erector backlash, illumination modules quitting, things like that.

                    I recommend the European approach to rifle optics when glassing the AR15 and AR10.

                    Prepare to spend at least as much on the optics and mount as you do the rifle, if not 2-3x more.

                    Nobody wants to hear that though, and most people roll the dice with $200-$400 scopes, hoping in one hand, and pulling the trigger with the other.

                    If you're an occasional hunter, you will usually get away with it.

                    If you shoot a lot of target, running 100rd+ range sessions long enough, you will see what I'm talking about, and any of the guys and gals that have been shooting for many years will confirm exactly what I've seen.

                    There is no way around it, unless you go with one of the fixed power SWFAs that will take even .50 BMG semi-auto abuse and like it, but those scopes don't offer the hunter any flexibility in the low magnification range because they are fixed 10x.
                    In the last 20 years I have been doing this what you have typed I have NEVER seen. I have more trigger time behind more scoped Ar15, Ar10, SR25 and others then most.

                    I have has a total of 6 optics fail on me.

                    2x SS 10x42mm
                    1x Leupold MK4 16x
                    1x Vortex PST's 2.5x10x32
                    2x EO Tech's

                    All of them due to pure wear and tear from hard use. everyone was replaced and we moved on.

                    I think your point of view is more accurate with Airguns due to the reverse recoil they have.

                    John

                    Comment

                    • kansas
                      Bloodstained
                      • Nov 2017
                      • 65

                      #11
                      I'll put in a word for the Burris XTR2 line ... I have three of them ...
                      The street prices run from about $900 up to about $1,100 ...
                      These include magnification ranges from 3-15x up to 5-25x ..
                      I run them in L&S Mk4 34mm steel SH rings with 1.4 center and these work well with NV/Thermal clipons as well as for day shooting.
                      We do a lot of tripod shooting around here due to the terrain not being flat and the grass in the pastures not allowing many prone shots.



                      Pros on the XTR2 line are the price, the reticles, and tracking for both the reticles and the turrets. We've run them on 6.5G(18) out to 900yds day and night against 66% size silhouettes. The illumination is useful even on low power.
                      Cons are they are a little on the long and heavy side, the glass is not exactly Tangent Theta level, but I can see bullet holes in white paper at 500yds.

                      The SCR-MIL reticle



                      So in summary, these are a great budget scope, the best for the money, at least in my book.

                      Comment

                      • Lightning8
                        Warrior
                        • Jun 2015
                        • 136

                        #12
                        I will provide a contrarian view. I have a Primary Arms 4x14 ACSS scope on my 20 inch Sabre upper 6.5 Grendel. I have put at least 500 rounds of full power 6.5 Grendel through this rifle with the scope attached with no issues. I find that my 6.5 Grendel loads track well with the PA 308 ACSS reticle. I have run this combination out to 800 yards on steel with no issues. It is first focal plane. It is cheap.

                        I upgraded several rifles to Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 6-24 or 4-16 but the PA 4-14 ACSS keeps working.

                        Comment

                        • nathan197
                          Bloodstained
                          • Nov 2017
                          • 29

                          #13
                          This link has been on here before but

                          Comment

                          • jhoyda
                            Bloodstained
                            • Aug 2017
                            • 59

                            #14
                            Originally posted by nathan197 View Post
                            This link has been on here before but
                            http://aaoptics.com/Refurbished-_c_93.html
                            Thanks for the link. This was news to me.

                            I'm looking long and hard at the 4-16 FFP with MRAD.

                            Comment

                            • nathan197
                              Bloodstained
                              • Nov 2017
                              • 29

                              #15
                              I have that exact model, go for it you won't regret it

                              Comment

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