Need New Bullets for 65G!

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  • BluntForceTrauma
    Administrator
    • Feb 2011
    • 3897

    #76
    Maker Bullets is moving forward with a copper solid design based on this discussion. We're looking forward to what they come up with.

    A lead-core target bullet as described is basically a "dead-end" — if you want to put it that way — in the sense that unless one of us has the capability to make industrial quantities of bullets in any given design, we are at the mercy of the major manufacturers to catch the vision.

    I bug them every chance I get. . . .
    :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

    :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

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    • Troutguide
      Warrior
      • Jan 2017
      • 380

      #77
      Any updates from Maker on this?
      "I rarely give a definite answer" - TG

      Comment

      • BluntForceTrauma
        Administrator
        • Feb 2011
        • 3897

        #78
        I haven't heard anything.
        :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

        :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

        Comment

        • BluntForceTrauma
          Administrator
          • Feb 2011
          • 3897

          #79
          Attached Files
          :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

          :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

          Comment

          • grayfox
            Chieftain
            • Jan 2017
            • 4295

            #80
            BFT you should be charging them some $$$ for all this free consulting!!
            I'll bet someone somewhere has a keen-o CAD app that has boattail/bearing surf/ogive-type/pointy-tip regions that you can just: spec the diameter, the desired bullet wt/copper thickness and then stretch or shrink each of the regions (with your mouse) to see what the actual wt would be and the bc and etc etc...
            The Lego-way to build a bullet!!!!!
            Bullet building for dummies lol!!
            "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

            Comment

            • Sticks
              Chieftain
              • Dec 2016
              • 1922

              #81
              Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
              Yet another "Photo-chop" mockup combining best features of Hornady's existing 6.5mm 143 ELD-X and 123 ELD-M. Take the very nice nose ogive from the 143 and stick it on a 123 — with a better boattail than both.

              There. Now, was that so hard? I honestly don't know what these bullet manufacturers are thinking. It's like an automotive engineer gets a brilliant idea and says, "Hey, I know, let's put a Pinto engine in a Camaro!"

              Bullet makers: Keep those ogives long and those bearing surfaces short and finish with slippery boattails.
              Surprised you have not molestered a Nosler RDF yet.
              Sticks

              Catchy sig line here.

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              • BluntForceTrauma
                Administrator
                • Feb 2011
                • 3897

                #82
                Nosler RDF is on my Happy List cuz of that new 130 RDF, which seems perfectly designed for a 130 target bullet. I ordered a box; due Monday — or Tuesday if the mail doesn't come on MLK Day.

                I wanna see what these sleek bullets in 110-115gr versions can do from the 65G. When makers think lighter bullets, they think they have to blunt the nose. No! Keep the exact same damn nose! Lose weight by cutting excess bearing surface or shank. Arrrgh! So simple yet seems so hard for them to grasp.
                :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                Comment

                • sneaky one
                  Chieftain
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 3077

                  #83
                  BFT, No Shiite ! What have I faced all these years with my hunt pill tweaks- that you have shot a few of. Leave it skinny on frontal, reduce wt. in non-critical areas.

                  When I contacted Bill A long ago---- he stated that the 95-110 grn. class was best for the grrr. That's what lead me to my hunt pills trials with gmx's.

                  Yes , a nice pointy version of this 130, in a 105-110 version is what's really needed for the Grrr.

                  Comment

                  • biodsl
                    Chieftain
                    • Aug 2011
                    • 1714

                    #84
                    Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
                    I wanna see what these sleek bullets in 110-115gr versions can do from the 65G. When makers think lighter bullets, they think they have to blunt the nose. No! Keep the exact same damn nose! Lose weight by cutting excess bearing surface or shank. Arrrgh! So simple yet seems so hard for them to grasp.
                    Stepping into the waaaay back machine...wasn't there a bullet group buy on this forum years ago? Perhaps the posts were lost in one of the hacks. IIRC, a manufacturer produced a limited run of bullets to our spec. Would Nosler make a 6.5 115gr RDF, to our spec, if we bought, say, 10,000? What would be an estimated BC on this bullet?
                    Paul Peloquin

                    Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?

                    Comment

                    • BluntForceTrauma
                      Administrator
                      • Feb 2011
                      • 3897

                      #85
                      B, back in the day Bill Alexander got Berger to do a 115gr version based on their 120gr, if memory serves. Their 120gr is nothing special and anything based on it is nothing amazing. Didn't sell.

                      Berger also did a 100gr that didn't sell that well, either.

                      What can we learn from these attempts? DON'T THROTTLE PERFORMANCE! Long ogives. Short shanks. Long boattails. You have to do it if you have limited case capacity. Need to strike a balance between weight, velocity, and form factor.
                      :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                      :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                      Comment

                      • dpete
                        Warrior
                        • May 2016
                        • 222

                        #86
                        What about this?

                        CB-MKZ-6.5-105-1.jpg

                        I remember them being mentioned earlier in this thread and thought I would wander over to their website to take a look. http://www.cavitybackbullets.com/category-s/107.htm

                        They make them in 105 and 118 grain models and the 118 expands down to 1600 fps. Price range is in the Barnes neighborhood or a bit higher.

                        Comment

                        • Randy99CL
                          Warrior
                          • Oct 2017
                          • 562

                          #87
                          Originally posted by sneaky one View Post
                          Yes, a nice pointy version of this 130, in a 105-110 version is what's really needed for the Grrr.
                          Whatever caliber I'm shooting I always go for the lighter bullets. Highest possible velocity + lighter recoil + extreme hydrostatic shock works for me. For example, my favorite load in .220 Swift fired 52g HPBT Match bullets.

                          So I'd love to see more slippery bullet designs in the 100-110g range. And a group buy so we could get them for less than $0.70 per.
                          "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

                          Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

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                          • jason miller
                            Warrior
                            • Dec 2016
                            • 182

                            #88
                            Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
                            B, back in the day Bill Alexander got Berger to do a 115gr version based on their 120gr, if memory serves. Their 120gr is nothing special and anything based on it is nothing amazing. Didn't sell.

                            Berger also did a 100gr that didn't sell that well, either.

                            What can we learn from these attempts? DON'T THROTTLE PERFORMANCE! Long ogives. Short shanks. Long boattails. You have to do it if you have limited case capacity. Need to strike a balance between weight, velocity, and form factor.
                            I just stuck a 140 Berger Hybrid in a case. It looks to me that an ogive that long suffers the same fate as the most aerodynamic bullets in a .223 case- their ogive is below the neck when seated at 2.260".

                            The magazine length of an AR is a big hurdle to overcome. Every major company has a bullet in .224" that is designed to be as aerodynamic as possible and still fit in an AR magazine. I'd bet that the various 123's that already exist are as close to as aerodynamic at 2.260" as possible, while still having the ogive close enough to the lands to be accurate.

                            If you want more aerodynamic, load up some 140's and single load them. They'll still catch a 123 ELd by 600 yards, even with a 200 fps muzzle velocity handicap.

                            If you want more speed, load up some 107 TMK's. They can be pushed fast enough that a 123 ELD doesn't catch one until they're both subsonic anyway, and the difference in wind drift is negligible.

                            We've already got about as good of bullets as we're gonna get. Any further refinement would result in a basically insignificant difference that would appeal to what is not a very significant market for the bullet companies.


                            But who knows. We're still in the middle of the Great Arms Race in bullet development that I've been waiting on for decades. After the manufacturers have maxed out their offerings for all the competitive guys shooting their .223's and .308's, or their 6mm Dashers, x47's, and Creedmoors, maybe they'll trickle some of those designs further down their product lines. But I wouldn't count on it. I don't see the 6.5 Grendel becoming a popular competitive cartridge anytime soon. A 6mm Grendel would be preferable, and it isn't different enough/doesn't offer an advantage to the Dasher to ever get popular without some rules changes. And if we're all honest with ourselves, none of us really shoot a fraction as much as the competitive guys that the manufacturers are catering to to try and earn a profit. Heck, the only bullet I really see a gaping hole in the market for would be one of those 85 grain GMX's but mass-produced, and I'd bet $100 that you couldn't sell 10,000 of them in a year if you priced them the same as regular 120 GMX's.
                            Last edited by jason miller; 01-14-2018, 04:29 PM.

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                            • BluntForceTrauma
                              Administrator
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 3897

                              #89
                              Originally posted by jason miller View Post
                              I just stuck a 140 Berger Hybrid in a case. It looks to me that an ogive that long suffers the same fate as the most aerodynamic bullets in a .223 case- their ogive is below the neck when seated at 2.260".
                              Yep. According to Berger's Quick Reference Sheets the 140H nose is 0.768 so you'd need to load it to 2.288 to keep ogive out of case mouth.

                              Originally posted by jason miller View Post
                              I'd bet that the various 123's that already exist are as close to as aerodynamic at 2.260" as possible, while still having the ogive close enough to the lands to be accurate.
                              I think they can do better, and do better easily — as I've been trying to show in this thread. Hornady, for example, can just as easily put the 143 nose on 123. That's all. Not rocket science.

                              Originally posted by jason miller View Post
                              We've already got about as good of bullets as we're gonna get. Any further refinement would result in a basically insignificant difference that would appeal to what is not a very significant market for the bullet companies.
                              Yes and no. As I've been describing, I think we can still do better. But, yes, I suppose all changes in bullets can be described as "insignificant." And yet there's that bullet "arms race" to get 10% more consistency and 10% more BC.

                              Originally posted by jason miller View Post
                              I don't see the 6.5 Grendel becoming a popular competitive cartridge anytime soon.
                              My goal is here, however, is to push it to the max and for that we need optimized bullets.

                              Originally posted by jason miller View Post
                              A 6mm Grendel would be preferable, and it isn't different enough/doesn't offer an advantage to the Dasher to ever get popular without some rules changes.
                              For competition, yes, and that project also interests me. See my post on designing such a cartridge in the Variants section.
                              :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                              :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                              Comment

                              • Tex Nomex
                                Warrior
                                • Dec 2017
                                • 185

                                #90
                                Originally posted by BluntForceTrauma View Post
                                Yep. According to Berger's Quick Reference Sheets
                                A lathe + brass bar stock. Mock some up. Then see how they seat.
                                "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
                                -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

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