Why I Chose to Hunt with the 6.5 Grendel

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  • Frontier Gear
    Warrior
    • Nov 2017
    • 772

    Why I Chose to Hunt with the 6.5 Grendel

    This is going to be a long post, but I hope that some of you find it useful. It is my attempt at a graphical explanation as to why I choose to hunt with the Grendel. A few things need to be clarified first.

    My target animals are coyotes, cougar, black bears, mule deer, whitetail deer and elk.

    The area that I hunt limits about 80% of my shot opportunities to 100 yards or less. The remaining 20% of the opportunities are less than 300 yards. Beyond that, I’m not really comfortable with shooting at an animal anyways. This is probably a fair representation of many hunters in North America.

    I believe in a thing called overkill. Some hunters do not. If I’m shooting at coyotes or cougars I don’t really care about overkill either. Dead is dead and you can’t get “more deader”. However, if I’m going after deer, bear or elk then I want to eat it. There is something inside of me that wants to be as responsible with what God has provided to me as food as I can be. When I was a kid, my best friend’s dad would take us hunting. He had two types of hunting rifles, a 30-30 and the 30-06. We did all of our own butchering (and I still do). It didn’t take me long to realize that both rounds killed deer out to 200 yards, but the 30-30 didn’t waste so much meat and it didn’t make such a mess on the kitchen counter when butchering the animal.

    In order to compare the potential effectiveness of a bullet/barrel length for hunting purposes, I started a spreadsheet. While you may not agree with my “cut off” levels, the numbers should be accurate and provide a good comparison between options.

    The “cut off” levels are based on loose “generally accepted standards” and my own experience. Take them with a grain of salt and don’t get upset if you don’t agree with them. They have served me well though and tend to represent what I have seen in the field and on the butcher block.

    Here are the cut off levels and the reasoning behind them.

    Minimum Humane Energy for Deer/Bear.
    800 ft/lbs

    Minimum Humane Energy for Elk/Moose.
    1,200 ft/lbs

    Maximum Energy for Deer/Bear.
    2,400 ft/lbs
    This needs some explanation. 2,400 ft/lbs is three times the minimum for deer and double the minimum for elk. At this point it is my opinion that I am wasting too much meat. It’s time to find a less powerful round or get more distance between me and the deer/bear.

    Maximum Energy for Elk/Moose.
    3,600 ft/lbs
    This is three times the minimum required for elk. I feel that the wrong tool has been selected for the job at this point. Either selecting a less powerful round or getting more distance from the target would resolve the issue.

    Excessive Velocity.
    2,800 ft/sec
    I’m sure that I’m going to get some comments on this number. Basically, what I’ve noticed is that there is “excessive bloodshot” at high velocities, even when the energy levels don’t indicate that there should be. This is a very loose number and is only based on my own personal experience. Again, take it with a grain of salt and don’t get upset if you don’t agree.

    Minimum Bullet Weight
    110gr
    I’m sure to get some feedback on this as well. I know that a great many deer have been taken with a 100rg 243. My family and I have taken quite a few ourselves with that very combination. We have used it enough for me to know that I no longer wish to do so. Sometimes it works great. Other times the bullet hits a bone and explodes. There was not enough mass and weight retention to continue into the vitals of the deer. The deer runs off with a very minute blood trail for us to follow. Then I’ve seen the exact same shots with heavier bullets result in a DRT (Dropped Right There). This is just my own self-imposed limitation, you can take it or leave it.


    Two points should be discussed before comparing cartridges.

    First is the overall length of the 6.5 Grendel round. This plays an important consideration since it allows for micro action bolt guns and use in AR15s. The AR15 is the most popular sporting rifle and is therefore the easiest to customize. They are also very accurate and light. Being able to chamber my choice of round in this platform is an advantage. The micro bolt action rifles are naturally smaller and lighter than the short action and long action bolt guns. Shorter and lighter is a good thing when hunting.

    Second is the price of ammo. I haven’t yet included options such as the .458 SOCOM because it costs about $3 per round. The Grendel on the other hand is about $1 per round for hunting options and down to $0.22 per round for budget practice ammo. This is a consideration when selecting a hunting round that I want to practice with.

    Other AR15 Options

    For the first comparison, let’s look at the other rounds that can be chambered in the AR15. The 223 and 5.56 NATO never even make it to the minimum for deer so I won’t even bother showing those. Besides the fact that it is not legal to hunt anything bigger than a cougar or coyote with them in Washington. The next is the 300 Blackout.

    300 Blackout

    300 Blackout.jpg
    This chart tells me that the 300 blackout can be a decent short range deer round. It is however a poor choice for elk. I must also be careful when selecting ammo for the 300 Blackout for hunting since the heavier rounds never make it to my minimum deer energy levels. I’ve used the 300blk on coyotes at short ranges with success, but for filling the freezer I’m looking for a bit more power and longer ranges.

    7.62x39

    A quick look at the 7.62x39 tells me that it makes for a nice little deer round, but again it falls short for elk. Two things to note are that this has the same weight as our test 6.5 Grendel and a relatively long 20” barrel. Yet even the short 12” barreled Grendel leaves it in the dust performance wise.
    7.62x39.jpg

    6.8 SPC

    The 6.8 SPC is probably the closest competitor to the 6.5 Grendel. Especially for hunting. The Grendel quickly outpaces the 6.8 at long range target shooting, but at hunting distances it is less significant. The 6.8 is a larger diameter. All else being equal, a larger diameter hole is an advantage when hunting. Since the test data that I have for the 6.8 is with a 16” barrel, I am only showing the equivalent data from the Grendel. As you can see, the Grendel still has about a 100 yard deer advantage and a 50 yard elk advantage over the 6.8 SPC. Throw in the cost of practice ammo and I’m buying a Grendel instead of the 6.8 SPC.

    6.8 SPC.jpg

    Summary for AR15 Options


    The rounds discussed above all share the same AR15 platform or micro action bolt options. From this group I think that it’s pretty easy to see why I chose the 6.5 Grendel. Next I will cover the more traditional hunting rounds that would otherwise fall into the “intermediate” category, but they don’t work in an AR15.
    Engineer, FFL and Pastor
  • Frontier Gear
    Warrior
    • Nov 2017
    • 772

    #2
    Non-AR15 Intermediate Rounds

    Non-AR15 Intermediate Rounds


    Some of these may actually be considered “high powered” instead of intermediate since they are necked down versions of their larger high-powered parents such as the 308 or the 30-06. From here on out I will only be using the 24” barrel data from the Grendel since all the other test barrels were 24” and I’m trying to keep it “apples-to-apples” as much as I can.

    30-30

    I can’t talk about hunting deer in the united states and not mention the 30-30. It has been popular for decades and continues to be a common choice among hunters.
    30-30.jpg
    The two 30-30 bullets depicted here are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The first is a traditional 150gr soft point, much like the ones we used when I was a kid. The second is a modern Hornady bullet with LEVERevolution powder. It is no surprise to see the old 150 grain soft point being adequate for deer out to 200 yards and elk to 100 yards. What is impressive is to see the difference modern technology does to that old round. It effectively doubles it's range. These numbers make the 30-30 a very viable choice for the modern hunter. A few things to keep in mind though.

    1. The Grendel still outperforms the 30-30 even with the LEVERevolution ammo.
    2. These test numbers are for a 24” barrel. Most lever guns now days have a shorter barrel. Don’t expect to get this type of performance from your 16 inch saddle gun.
    3. Bullet selection makes a huge difference for this round. It isn’t as critical as the 300 Blackout, but pay attention to the ammo that you buy and the range at which you shoot.
    4. Most 30-30’s are lever action. This has its pluses and minuses. They are very handy to carry and about the nicest rifle to pack on a horse. They are a pain in the rear-end though when you are hunting in Washington state and you are moving from one hunting spot to the next in any kind of a motorized vehicle. You must unload each round through the action.

    Performance goes to the 6.5 Grendel.

    243

    This necked down 308 is a favorite among many, but I found it to be too fast and too light weight. If 110 grain ammo was more readily available, I would be inclined to keep trying it.
    243.jpg
    I see three issues with the 243 here and a fourth is worth mentioning.

    1. The Grendel with the same barrel length out performs the 243
    2. The 243 does not meet my minimum bullet weight of 110 grains (as highlighted in grey)
    3. The 243 exceeds my maximum velocity of 2,800 ft/sec when under 50 yards. This is shown by an “X” on the graph.
    4. The 243 does work in the AR10 but not the AR15. This means that we get less performance than the Grendel but in a larger and heavier rifle.

    Not many advantages here with the 243, in fact I don’t see any.

    25-06

    This is a much longer cartridge than the 6.5 Grendel with an overall case length of 3.25 inches as compared to the 2.26 inches of overall case length of the Grendel. The 25-06 is simply a necked down 30-06. I have included it here for a couple of reasons. First, it is a favorite of many due to it’s medium power and flat trajectory. Which are some of the same reason the Grendel is popular. The second reason for it’s inclusion is to show that we can get just as good of performance (or better) with a smaller modern round.
    25-06.png
    First let’s look at the traditional 117 grain soft point. It’s performance almost mirrors that of the Grendel. It has a 50 yard advantage on elk with a reach out to 350 yards, but at the same time it has a 50 yard disadvantage on both deer and elk at the opposite end. The disadvantage being due to the velocity above 2,800 ft/sec. Since I know that I’m more likely to be shooting at deer and elk at shorter distances rather than at 350 yards, it is a poor trade.

    This disadvantage is increased when we try to increase the range by going to a smaller and faster bullet. While I do see some advantage to being able to take elk between 350 and 450 yards, I am not willing to give up the opportunities at 150 yards and less. Also, we will soon see that if I really wanted to shoot elk at the longer distances, there are other options that provide humane opportunities on elk out to 550 yards without going over my velocity or energy maximums at the short ranges.

    Summary for Non-AR15 Intermediate Rounds


    Even if I “step it up” to the next level of cartridge, I don’t gain any advantages over the Grendel. The disadvantages of longer cartridges, excessive velocities and underweight projectiles start to creep in.
    Last edited by Frontier Gear; 12-15-2017, 09:25 PM.
    Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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    • Frontier Gear
      Warrior
      • Nov 2017
      • 772

      #3
      High Powered Options

      High Powered Options

      This is an entirely different category of cartridge from the Grendel. I am no longer comparing apples-to-apples. However, it is interesting to see how they stack up. As a general rule I find this category to be too overpowered at the most common hunting ranges.
      High Power.jpg
      Something that I find worth noting is that the traditional 308 soft point is almost identical to the 6.5 Grendel. The 308 offers an extra 50 yards on elk, but we loose 50 yards on deer. Before getting my Grendel I used two hunting rifles for big game. A 44 Magnum lever action rifle for deer under 100 yards and a 150 grain soft point 308 for everything else.

      6.5 Creedmoor

      6.5 Creedmoor.jpg
      Here we have another winner. It’s not a coincidence that it is another 6.5mm projectile with great performance. Once the powder behind the projectile is increased, the bullet weight must also be increased in order to bring the energy and velocity levels back to my acceptable levels. The result with the 140 grain 6.5 Creedmoor is that it is a round with acceptable performance from 0-850 yards on deer and 0-550 yards on elk. This is the best option that I have seen yet as an all-round deer and elk option. The only issues being that it does not fit into my AR15 and the practice ammo is not $0.22 per round. However the 6.5 Creedmoor does fit into a nice AR10. While the AR10 is not my preference, if I was looking for something more than the 6.5 Grendel this would be the option I would choose.

      Magnum Options

      These are included only to show how powerful they really are. For deer and even elk they are simply too powerful to be practical for my purposes.
      Magnums.jpg
      Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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      • BluntForceTrauma
        Administrator
        • Feb 2011
        • 3897

        #4
        Thorough report and sound reasoning. Thanks for taking the time to put all this together!
        :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

        :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

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        • LRRPF52
          Super Moderator
          • Sep 2014
          • 8569

          #5
          Great summary with graphics to convey your perspective.

          In talking with Hornady, they said they really like the predictable terminal performance of 6.5 Grendel because it isn't too fast and isn't slow on target, while many focus on the modest muzzle velocities and write it off, not understanding how BC plays in its favor. One of the things they see on both game and in gel is unpredictable behavior when the impact speed is high, especially after impact with bone (usually ribs). The projectile can become significantly deflected from the intended wound path.

          I think the SBR comparison of 6.5 Grendel to 7.62x39 and 30-30 Winchester really tells the layman what we've been trying to say all these years, when you look at the retained energy of a shorter barrel little AR15 pistol/SBR compared to an AK, SKS, or Win 94 20" or 24" 30-30 pushing heaver bullets.

          Even from a 10.5" Grendel shooting the exact same bullet weight (123gr) compared to a 16.3" AK or 20" SKS, it still exceeds them both by 75-150yds, from a much shorter package.

          I would love to see that graphic with an SBR Grendel's speed, energy, trajectory, and wind chart in front with an AK, SKS, and 30-30 below it.
          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

          www.AR15buildbox.com

          Comment

          • Redomen
            Warrior
            • Jun 2016
            • 568

            #6
            Nice read

            Comment

            • LRRPF52
              Super Moderator
              • Sep 2014
              • 8569

              #7
              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

              www.AR15buildbox.com

              Comment

              • Frontier Gear
                Warrior
                • Nov 2017
                • 772

                #8
                Here is a basic chart showing the speed of a 6.5 Grendel coming out of a 12" barrel as compared to a traditional 30-30, a modern 30-30 and a 7.62x39. The 30-30s are both with 24" test barrels and the 7.62x39 is a 20" test barrel.

                Velocity Chart.jpg
                Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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                • Frontier Gear
                  Warrior
                  • Nov 2017
                  • 772

                  #9
                  Same rounds but showing energy instead of velocity. I also added the 6.5 Grendel out of a 24" barrel. This is basically the same information that I showed in the first post, but in a different type of graph. It's interesting to see how well the Grendel holds it's energy as compared to the others.

                  Energy Chart.jpg
                  Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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                  • Frontier Gear
                    Warrior
                    • Nov 2017
                    • 772

                    #10
                    Same rounds as the last chart, but showing trajectory. This takes a couple of charts due to resolution. All rifles being zeroed at 200 yards. The first chart is at 1,000 yards. While it is interesting it doesn't really show us much for hunting.

                    Drop at 1000 Chart.jpg

                    This second chart is zoomed in to 300 yards. Here you can see that the 12" Grendel and the modern 30-30 are almost identical with the Grendel having a slight advantage. However, the barrel length of the 30-30 is twice as long. If you give the Grendel the same barrel length as the 30-30, The Grendel becomes the clear winner.

                    Drop at 300 Chart.jpg
                    Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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                    • tracker12
                      Warrior
                      • Dec 2017
                      • 163

                      #11
                      Nice report with some interesting stats. but I am not putting Elk and moose on my list of animals that I would hunt with a 65G. And this is from a person that has killed 3 Elk with a .264 win mag and 140 grain Nosler Partitions.
                      Last edited by tracker12; 12-16-2017, 01:13 AM.
                      AR's make shooting fun again!

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                      • IceAxe
                        Warrior
                        • Jan 2014
                        • 168

                        #12
                        What about a 30 RAR or the 450 Bushmaster? I know the 30RAR is getting rare but they are still out there. The 450 Bushey on the other hand is quite popular back in my home state of Michigan.

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                        • bj139
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 1968

                          #13
                          So I should use my 6.5 Grendel and forget about getting a 243 Winchester?

                          Comment

                          • Frontier Gear
                            Warrior
                            • Nov 2017
                            • 772

                            #14
                            Originally posted by bj139 View Post
                            So I should use my 6.5 Grendel and forget about getting a 243 Winchester?
                            That's totally up to you. I'm just providing my personal experience and opinions combined with some technical data. It really depends on what you want to do with it and what your expectations are. I'm assuming that your are hunting with it. What animals are you going after? What distances are you expecting? What distances are you going to limit yourself to? (there's a difference between these two questions) What ammo are you planning on using? I was very happy with my 44 magnum rifle and 308 AR10 until I moved to an area where I could no longer predict if the shots were going to be under or over 100 yards. Then I started looking for something that would serve me well regardless of the range.

                            Personally I sold my 243 years ago after I got tired of tracking wounded deer. The final straw was a doe that my (at the time) 14 year old son shot. It was a good lung shot at 40 yards. The bullet hit a rib bone and exploded the first lung. A deer can go a REALLY LONG WAY with one good lung. If the bullet had held together and passed through both lungs, it wouldn't have made it more than 100 yards. It's just too much energy/velocity and not enough lead in my opinion. This wasn't the first time we had that happen, but it was the last time I was going to let it happen.
                            Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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                            • Frontier Gear
                              Warrior
                              • Nov 2017
                              • 772

                              #15
                              Originally posted by IceAxe View Post
                              What about a 30 RAR or the 450 Bushmaster? I know the 30RAR is getting rare but they are still out there. The 450 Bushey on the other hand is quite popular back in my home state of Michigan.
                              Okay, I haven't really talked about large slow bullets yet. They are very fun and perform with surprising results. I am a fan of them and have a couple myself. I've mentioned my 44 magnum rifle and it's a pip-squeak as compared to the 450 Bushmaster or 458 SOCOM, yet if I hit a deer anywhere near the boiler room when under 100 yards, it was guaranteed meat in the freezer. Keep in mind that these are expensive ($3 per round for the 458 and $1.30 per round for 450 Bushmaster), have a much higher recoil and are very limited in their range. These drop like rocks and are going sub-sonic at or before they reach the end of their effective range as shown on the chart. These can be great options if you know that you will be within their range and you are willing to pay for them. That being said, I'm selling my 458 elsewhere on this board. The 6.5 Grendel costs less to shoot and is more versatile.
                              44mag 450 458.jpg
                              Engineer, FFL and Pastor

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