Shoulder shots with 123 SST's

[Safety Guy]

I usually take behind the shoulder shots on my deer. First and only shot I took this year (first year with the Grendel as well). The deer took off in some thick stuff and was not recovered. I started thinking about the high shoulder shot, but was unsure if the Grendel or the SST itself was up to the task. What's everyone's take on this?

[fdbyrne78]

I've only shot one deer with the Grendel so it's a small sample size.

123 SST launched at 2500fps went in behind one shoulder, tore up the heart and lungs, exited through the far shoulder striking the leg bone on the way out. The far shoulder was toast. It was a 165 yard shot.

[Double Naught Spy]

Is the Grendel up to the task? Well, given that we have folks that regularly take deer and hogs with it and some who have taken elk and bear with it, I would say it is up to the task.

"Behind the shoulder" is a proper shot. However, I have come to decide that often generic references to 3 dimensional structures described in 2 dimensions can often lead to very erroneous comprehension of what is being said. I started noticing this in self defense classes when instructors spoke of "shot placement" as if the entry hole dictated what was going to be hit underneath. You can potentially place shots where they need to be on a critter that would be a great shot on a 2D perfectly broadside paper target, but be poor placement on a 3D living crittter that is somewhat quartered - same entry point, different results because of different structures impacted inside.

So you shot a deer "behind the shoulder." Is that just where you were aiming or where you actually saw the impact hole and blood? No offense, but at distance, I slight bobble can turn a good shot into a bad shot. Unfortunately, several folks here have seen some of my shots go awry for that very reason.

Are you talking about behind the joint of the shoulder, backside somewhere in the shoulder muscle mass, or behind the shoulder muscle mass? Was the deer absolutely perpendicular to you, quartered toward you, or quartered away from you? Were you shooting up at the deer, directly level with it, or at a downward trajectory? Was the show behind the shoulder and low on the body, midway up, or high up? Was your deer stationary or moving and if it was moving, did you provide appropriate lead to compensate? This article addresses many of the issues. It is a bowhunting article, but it deals with the concept of deer orientation and shot placement. - http://marylandbucks.com/where-to-ai...hitetail-deer/

Assuming you made a proper shot "behind the shoulder," something you need to understand is that if you fail to do significant damage to the central nervous system, either directly (bullet hits brain or spinal cord), or indirectly (damage occurs by hydraulic shock, hydrostatic shock, or the bullet hits bone that damages the brain or spinal cord), then your animal may run away from you. That the deer runs doesn't mean you made a bad shot. It may be running dead, meaning your shot didn't cripple the deer and didn't do significant CNS damage, and so it will be capable of running until the brain is starved of oxygen. If you made a good shot on the deer and could not find it, then that is on you and your tracking abilities. That isn't being hard on you. Anybody that hunts in or near thick brush has lost game. Tracking can be tough.

Depending on how big your deer was, your SST bullet would have likely exited. If it exited high or didn't exit, you may not get much of a blood trail and the deer likely bled to death internally. That isn't an SST issue, but a terminal ballistics issue that can happen with any bullet that doesn't exit or where the the holes are high. That makes tracking harder.

...

So I wrote all that I reread the OP. First it was 'behind the shoulder' and then the reference to "high shoulder." If you made a high shoulder shot and didn't damage the spine, you probably lunged the deer. A deer can go over 100 yards with a double lung shot, regardless of caliber. Most won't, but it can. It can go farther with a single lung shot. It will still be just as dead.

[Safety Guy]

Re-reading my question, I can see the confusion and I apologize. The shot I took was at about 35 yards on a perfectly broadside whitetail doe (estimate weight of 100lbs). I was shooting from a 12' stand with an ok rest. POA was inline with the back of the leg, half way up the body. I did not see the impact. I was able to see her run about 75 yards in a straight line through the underbrush before I lost sight of her. I was able to follow a very sporadic blood trail up to the last place I saw her, then nothing. I know I rushed the shot a little, the season is about over here and this was the first shooter I have seen (nothing but small bucks before her).

I was questioned the high shoulder shot to hopefully limit the need for a long track, because I have proved I have not yet mastered this skill. Some say the SST opens fast, was worried it would not punch through the shoulder bone.

[Frontier Gear]

Double Naught Spy,
Well said coming from a guy who has killed a lot of animals. My $0.02 is here http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...l=1#post177068

Bottom line is yes. The Grendel can punch through a shoulder if your using a bullet with enough mass. Personally I prefer 123 grain, but won't go below 110 grain for deer. I aim for the shoulder and try to get the heart/lungs at the same time. Knock his legs out from under him and create enough internal hemorrhaging (blood loss) that he doesn't get back up, or if he does get back up he doesn't go too far.

[Double Naught Spy]

Safety Guy, no apology necessary. For general conversation, "shoulder shot" or "behind the shoulder" is more than sufficient for for a basic description. However, it is vague and somewhat non-technical and so when a technical question is asked using terms that are vague, it is hard to answer. I can honestly say that from the people I have hunting with that "behind the shoulder" can range from the farthest back ribs to the shoulder and there is a lot of different anatomy over that distance.

Your second description is very helpful. Slight downward angle, hitting midline of the body in line with the leg on a broadside shot, I would guess that you punched the near side lung, like went over the heart and exited below the opposite side lung. You may or may not have hit blood vessels above (dorsal to) the heart. On the near side, you likely missed the leg or the scapula and on the far side, depending on leg position, you may or may not have hit leg bone. You probably hit some ribs on one or both sides. If you only hit the one lung and no major blood vessels, it may take a bit for the deer to bleed out or for the lungs to fill with blood. If you didn't hit a leg bone and break it, the the deer probably ran just fine...for a while, but it doesn't take long for a deer to cover a lot of distance.

[tracker12]

There is no way you can evaluate a shot on an unrecovered animal. No animal is going to go far and live with a double lung shot even thou I see guys posting "I made a perfect double lung shot" and never could find the animal. Must be the bullet or broadhead. Most lost deer are the result of poor shot placement. DNS kills a bunch and I repeat a bunch of animals. And dead animals are what you need to examine to determine how a cartridge or broadhead performs.

[howl]

Sounds like the holes were too high for blood to spill quickly OR the bullet didn't work as it should. The Grendel SST gets inconsistent reports on here.

[Drillboss]

There have been plenty of 123 SST kills in this thread: http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...wn-quot-survey

I don't recall seeing many reports that the bullet didn't perform. My own experience with bullet has been three whitetail does and one pronghorn. They were all pass-throughs, with at least one taking out some upper front leg bones.

[Redomen]

In my opinion the 123 SST is very capable of punching through shoulders on deer. I have shot both deer and hogs through the shoulders with this bullet and they have DRT. One hog I shot was near 500#. I do warn that the bullet tends to explode on bone from my experience. I was not able to salvage much meat from the shoulders but I did not have to track them either. I prefer a broad side shot just behind the shoulders. DNS makes a very good point about dimensions. I have shot deer that I thought to be broad side but were quartering and it makes a difference. Hope this helps.

[Les]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the 123 SST, assuming of course proper bullet placement and knowledge of anatomy of critter being hunted. Bad bullet placement and all bets are off.

[Clarence]

Building on DNS's comments, i've always heeded the advice to shoot for where you want the bullet to go, rather than a specific spot on the animal. Keep in mind the anatomy of the animal and aim for where the lungs and hear are. For a broadside shot, hold on the leg, rather than just behind the leg; the heart/lungs are centered on the leg and the major shoulder bone is further forward than people generally think. For a quartering away shot, shoot mid-ribs to just in front of the hip, depending on the angle, to put the bullet into the lung/heart area. I also try to avoid the high lung shot; I've found that to allow deer-size animals to travel with little blood to trail until the whole cavity fills. If you want to anchor an animal and don't use a neck/heart shot, a shot that destroys lungs and hits heavy shoulder/leg bone will often knock down the animal, and if it gets back up, will not go very far before loss of blood puts it down.

Clarence

[doofus65]

Safety Guy

The shot I took was at about 35 yards on a perfectly broadside whitetail doe (estimate weight of 100lbs).

At 35 yards, an SST should be able to punch through most everything, but at this range and facing only a medium-small doe, it should have been a slam dunk.

No offense, but I think that the bullet just didn't hit where you wanted it to. I've been there/ done that myself (including this year).

[Texkitch]

Good timing. Just shot a whitetail doe yesterday with 123 SST. It was a hand load with 28.0 gns ARComp so about 2450 FPS. 110 yards and I aimed and hit above the shoulder after reading some other posts about how much meat is damaged by a shoulder shot. Should have taken pictures but the bullet passed through the spine with a 1” or more exit and the deer didn’t take a step. Minimum damage to the front tip of the backstrap but happy with the result.

[ocm4]