Night Hunting without Visible Light

[Bill257]

I'd like to quit using visible light for night hog hunting. I already have a Bushnell digital night vision monocular- like the fact it is not alerting pigs, but it is kind of grainy and bright enough that night vision suffers after using it. That said I am happy with what it does - let's me scan every few minuets and know what is going on before turning on the red gun mounted light.

So I am considering a ATN X-sight II 3x14. Anyone have experience with these "scopes"? link https://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-...le-scope-3-14x

I recognize there is far better technology available, but the amount of use it would see is in line with it's price. I am looking for what is practical versus what is possible.

Other suggestions are welcome.

[fdbyrne78]

I have one and it works well enough for me. All of my hunts are within 75 yards in woods. It doesn't do a great job of magnifying the minimal light that makes it through the forest canopy but when you turn on the IR flashlight it works fine.

I've used higher end units and they are better but with the conditions I hunt in, it doesn't justify the extra price.

[bakabone25]

Thermal is the way to go, but from personal experience i would not buy ATN products. I have two and they or both inferior to my other units. Again my opinion, and i would certainly seek advice from Double Naughty Spy. He is very well versed on night vision equiptment.

[Double Naught Spy]

Thanks bakabone!

The X-sight II is a decent scope, so long as you don't have a problem. ATN is not known for having great customer service.

The only other night optic in that price range, I believe is the Sightmark Photon. The X-sight has a better (and color) day image and can have a better night image. It also has a lot of bells and whistles, many that you will not use. For example, it does have a ballistic calculator that will adjust your POI by moving the crosshairs to the correct aiming alignment given the parameters you plug in. The problem is that plugging in the parameters can be a real pain in the butt. Point? You probably won't use it, but it is there and does work. What you may use and certainly enjoy is the onboard recording. The Photon is much more bare bones. It is a scope without a lot of extras.

Both will benefit from the use of a separate IR light source. You can spend big bucks on an IR illuminator or you can get out quite inexpensively such as with one like this...

https://smile.amazon.com/Evolva-Future-Technology-Flashlight-Torch/dp/B00TFCJNTS/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1515348142&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=ir+flashlight&psc=1

for which you just buy a flashlight mount and mount it on a rail, such as these...

https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_15?url=search-alias%3Dsporting&field-keywords=picatinny+flashlight+mount&sprefix=picatinny+flash%2Csporting%2C331&crid=FBRSVA31IUA7

As digital NV, neither option will work very well with starlight. Both will probably work okay with a full moon. So you will be using IR illumination for night hunting. In an open field without a lot of tall grass, this works great. In a field with high grass or obstructions between you and your target, you will get a lot of reflection off of the closer things and this can be detrimental to the point of not being able to see beyond the closer things.

Here is a good example video. This is one of my earlier videos and include cheesy music. My apologies. However, it will demonstrate the use of the IR illuminator (one almost exactly the same as the Evolva) and how it can reflect on close things and the reflection obscure distant things. This also includes smoke from the rifle. If you have a light breeze, this goes away very fast. If it is a still night, the particulates can hang in the air for literally 2-4 seconds and obscure your view because so much light is reflected off the smoke particulates.

I did hunt this way for a couple of years with Pulsar Digisight scopes. You can certainly make it work for you.

Do take note that the IR illuminator is not truly invisible. The light shined is invisible, but the illuminator will have a dull red glow to it. Animals not killed may become educated to this (if they see it) just as they would to white light shined on them. I have experienced this with hogs that see the "red glowing ball of doom" and took off once they noticed it. It is not nearly as problematic as shining a white light on them. They have to notice it for it to bother them, but it can be a problem.

You can go with a higher nm light. The Evolva is around 850 nm (IIRC) and you can go with 900-940 nm lights that have almost no emitted red glow, but they don't work with all forms of NV very well and they have a greatly reduced usable range for the same size light and power (batteries) used.

[Bill257]

Thanks all, especially Double Naught Spy for your detailed write up and video.

I did know digital NV needs an IR illuminatior - my handheld has one built in. I have noticed the red glow when looking at it, but was more concerned how the IR can light up close branches or leaves on the edge of the sight picture so brightly that further objects I am actually trying to see are washed out. My current visible red light has a rheostat allowing infinite adjustment, what would be nice is finding a IR module to use in it (currently all I see is red, green and white light LED modules). If not, I see the one you linked to has high medium, and low settings. The handheld has a few settings and when on low this wash out is minimized, guessing the same would be true for the x sight.

As far as rifle smoke interfering with sighting -- I have to consider that a first world problem. Most of my hunting is done in woods with limited fields of view so second shots are unlikely anyway unless it's going in to the same spot as the first shot to "assure quality"

Agree the X sight is loaded (maybe overloaded) with features. I do like the recoil activated video recording. The ability to save several zeros could be useful for saving a suppressed and unsuppressed zero...

Did worry that some of the ballistic calculating or other features could start acting up or require some data input at the wrong time -- thankfully I have not seen any reports of this.

Again thanks and happy hunting
Bill

[Double Naught Spy]

Bill,
Yep, everyone has a different situation, wants, needs, price limit, etc. The trick is to find what will work for you. I wanted to cover enough bases so that you could make a more informed decision given that I didn't know what your situation was.

I understand the new Photo RT with a good IR light works out to 300 yards and has a nice image. You can find some demos on Youtube. I have not handled the scope myself. The Inexpensive Evolva light I suggested would get you out to 150-200 yards, maybe a bit more. I had an original Photon for a while and I had no trouble watching deer at ~175 yards.

Good luck with your decision. Be sure to show us what you get and what you kill!

Final word of warning, IR lights are dangerous and can potentially harm your eyes. Don't stare into one of these high power illuminators.

[Bill257]

Yeah when I first got the Bushnell handheld and was trying various settings it was clear that even though the light is not visible to the eye it was putting out energy as it lights up objects beyond 100 yards. Probably not a good idea to be looking into it!

Will post follow up - may be a while as I don't go as often as I like and the hogs are very wary. Due to pressure they avoid openings during daylight and are visibly nervous anytime they can't stay in cover such as when crossing a trail. That coupled with seemingly constant wind direction changes limits opportunities.

Night seems to be a better option. But, they are sensitive to the dim red light, either trotting back and forth or just running the moment it comes on. If I have an optic that holds zero and is slightly clearer than my hand held that should be all the edge I need to maximize my opportunities.

[beastep]

One more thing to think about is how well the scope deals with movement. I know nothing about these as I dont have one but I hunt with a buddy that has one and the objects turn into a blur during movement such as tracking a moving pig. The faster the movement the worse it is. Im sure some scopes are worse at this than others. But, like I said, my knowledge on the subject is limited.

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know what your buddy has, but the original ATN X-Sight had these problems (along with a LOT of other problems). I believe they have resolved much of that.

[beastep]

I dont know what he has either. Other than that its a great scope.

[Double Naught Spy]

Great scope and blurry movement? Odd.

[beastep]

It should have read it was a great scope unless there was movement.

[Bill257]

Think I may be looking in a new direction. Seems many people love their X-sight while others have problems...The ATN owners forum lists lots of patches (don't use certain settings, rename files before updating firmware, modifying caps to limit light into the scope, etc.) No real solution for two apparently common issues that would not sit well with me - screen freeze and buttons not responding.

So now looking a the FLIR thermosight pro PTS 233 http://www.flir.com/ots/thermosight-pro/

And the Armasight Predator http://www.armasight.com/thermal-ima...g-weapon-sight

I saw your review of the predator, Double Naught Spy. Biased on your review and other things I have seen, it should work for me where I'm expecting shots to be under 150 yards.

Wondering the Thermosight pro has newer technology that make it better... I understand the Thermosight pro records video which I like while the Predator requires a wired recorder. Or is the Thermosight behind the predator in picture quality?

I read Armasight was purchased by FLIR so they are both from the same company. And I have not seen many complaints with either sight or the company in general.

Thanks all for your comments so far

[Double Naught Spy]

Sorry, but I have only played with the Thermosight briefly and not hunted with it and haven't seen is side-by-side with the Predator. There are several videos where people have used the sight that are on Youtube that you might want to compare with Predator videos. Note that while the Thermosight does record, it has no sound capability.

[Priusron]

The unusable options on the sight appear to have been resolved. I have had very good service. A couple of hy navigation buttons weren’t working properly so I sent it in. I received a brand new scope with another ir illuminator. I have not tried it yet as I am in California and just finished my grendel earlier this month.