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  • Klem
    Chieftain
    • Aug 2013
    • 3507

    #16
    My advice is that barrel is safe as long as you accept that you will need to load 0.5 grain less than recommended loads for SAAMI chambers. Also, don't fire any factory ammunition through it. Factory ammo might go into battery but the load is designed for SAAMI chambers so will be (dangerously) hot in your chamber.

    I agree with the others that it is prudent to finish ream or swap out barrels, preferably take it back for a refund if you can. If you are stuck with it and don't want to hand ream it you can still use it safely, but hand-loads only and work up stopping at 0.5grains less than everyone else.

    NB: The 0.5 grain difference is from crunching the numbers on Quickload. QL is a computer simulation so bear in mind that in reality it will likely be more or less. Your risk but if I were you I'd not take the risk and fix it.

    Comment

    • Randy99CL
      Warrior
      • Oct 2017
      • 562

      #17
      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
      There is no reason why a chamber should be leaving the factory with a 2.200" COL limit with 123gr ELD-M. That's a very short chamber since that bullet has a very streamlined ogive that should be pushing much farther forward. I would fix that first.
      I am very unhappy about this.

      I just got my reloading bench done and am in the home stretch for loading for my 20" BCA upper.

      Last night I slit a case (mototool) to determine where the lands start in my barrel. ***I'm not comfortable with the results because the bolt has to be pushed pretty hard to close and it may be moving the bullet.*** I'm ordering the Hornady gauge and drilled case.

      So I tried each multiple times and got the following results:
      90g Speer TNT = 2.242" coal.
      95g Hornady V-Max = 2.152"
      100g Hornady SP = 2.165"
      123g Nosler CC = 2.183"
      Obviously, these are maximums and I would normally start at least .030 short from that.

      BCA included three PPU brass cases with my build and they all show ejector marks on the base, but I didn't want to believe that even factory ammo could be showing pressure signs. If they are loaded with the bullets into the lands that would do it.

      I'm hoping to fire the Grrr for the first time this weekend and will only use my short handloads.
      I'll check everything again with the Hornady gauge (when it gets here) and then call BCA to see what they say.

      I'm a retired machinist and amateur gunsmith and will check into renting a reamer and fixing this myself. But I'm angry that I have to do that.
      "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

      Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

      Comment

      • 1Shot
        Warrior
        • Feb 2018
        • 781

        #18
        I would be calling Bear Creek and demanding that they replace or fix your barrel.

        Comment

        • Randy99CL
          Warrior
          • Oct 2017
          • 562

          #19
          I did a search and found that for $32 I can rent a precision throat reamer and lengthen it myself. These reamers are made to extremely tight tolerances for BR and long-range guns and I suspect that my cutting it by hand would be better than what BCA might do. I could end up with a more accurate barrel than what BCA mass produces.

          Their barrels are turned out quickly on CNC machines. I don't know what capability they have of fixing a finished barrel.

          I will contact them and see what they say but I suspect a new barrel would have the same problem.
          "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

          Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

          Comment

          • 1911man
            Warrior
            • May 2015
            • 482

            #20
            Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
            I did a search and found that for $32 I can rent a precision throat reamer and lengthen it myself. These reamers are made to extremely tight tolerances for BR and long-range guns and I suspect that my cutting it by hand would be better than what BCA might do. I could end up with a more accurate barrel than what BCA mass produces.

            Their barrels are turned out quickly on CNC machines. I don't know what capability they have of fixing a finished barrel.

            I will contact them and see what they say but I suspect a new barrel would have the same problem.
            They are crazy if they dont offer to just swap you barrels or Re-ream it for you. This actually seems to happen quite often and with a few different barrel makers in the years I have been following Grendel. It appears that for mass producers their reamers get dull and they send out a batch of short chambers. The only way they know to fix it is if customers call in to tell them. This happened to me and several others with a recent batch of AA barrels and also me and several others on a run of Savage rifles years ago. Each company was willing to fix the problem.

            Comment

            • BluntForceTrauma
              Administrator
              • Feb 2011
              • 3897

              #21
              Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
              I will contact them and see what they say but I suspect a new barrel would have the same problem.
              Their quality seems to be random. Sometimes you get lucky and get a shooter from them. One guy here said he'd be hard pressed to choose between his Krieger and his BCA for accuracy — though I'm sure the price difference is hundreds of dollars.

              A short, out-of-spec chamber really is their problem, and I'd roll the dice and have them send a replacement under warranty and maybe you get lucky. Can't be any worse than your current situation!
              :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

              :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

              Comment

              • beastep
                Bloodstained
                • Jan 2018
                • 82

                #22
                I hope you have better luck getting someone to call you back than I have. And honestly right now I cant afford to just buy another barrel even if it is in the $100 range and I wouldnt know if it had a short throat until I got it to my house. It seems almost every barrel maker has had this problem at some point.

                If I have had any experience reaming a chamber before I would just do it myself, although I couldnt find any reamers under $150 but I wasnt positive what I was looking for.

                This barrel shoots really well, some .5moa loads as a matter of fact. If I can get to the speed I want with handloads and still hold good groups Im good with that. It wouldnt be worth me sending it back and being out a barrel for several weeks and not even knowing if they would send me one just like this one. I never shoot factory loads so if I can make it happen with this barrel I will.

                Lot of good advice, thanks guys. And a link to that cheap reamer would be appreciated.

                Edit, I missed the part about renting a reamer and not buying it.

                Comment

                • LRRPF52
                  Super Moderator
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 8569

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Randy99CL View Post
                  I am very unhappy about this.

                  I just got my reloading bench done and am in the home stretch for loading for my 20" BCA upper.

                  Last night I slit a case (mototool) to determine where the lands start in my barrel. ***I'm not comfortable with the results because the bolt has to be pushed pretty hard to close and it may be moving the bullet.*** I'm ordering the Hornady gauge and drilled case.

                  So I tried each multiple times and got the following results:
                  90g Speer TNT = 2.242" coal.
                  95g Hornady V-Max = 2.152"
                  100g Hornady SP = 2.165"
                  123g Nosler CC = 2.183"
                  Obviously, these are maximums and I would normally start at least .030 short from that.

                  BCA included three PPU brass cases with my build and they all show ejector marks on the base, but I didn't want to believe that even factory ammo could be showing pressure signs. If they are loaded with the bullets into the lands that would do it.

                  I'm hoping to fire the Grrr for the first time this weekend and will only use my short handloads.
                  I'll check everything again with the Hornady gauge (when it gets here) and then call BCA to see what they say.

                  I'm a retired machinist and amateur gunsmith and will check into renting a reamer and fixing this myself. But I'm angry that I have to do that.
                  The most affordable barrels I've ever purchased have been in the $400-$600 price range for just the barrel.

                  The most expensive barrels I have tried to work with "only" cost $150-$250 up front.

                  After racking up gas to the range, ammo wasted, time on the bench trying to find out what is wrong with them, going back to the range, getting adjustable gas and installing it, going back to the range, wasting more ammo, coming back home, and realizing that I'm now $600 into that barrel and it still doesn't even work, I learned the hard way.

                  Never again. Funny thing with one particular barrel was that it shot bug holes, but I couldn't get it to cycle no matter what I did. It was a .094" gas port MLGS 18" barrel from Underground Tactical. I'm not knocking them, just explaining exactly what happened. A friend sent me his complete upper to try to get to working for him. After 3 range trips and all the band-aids, I couldn't spend any more time with it and sent it back to him. He bought it from another friend for "a steal".

                  I bedded the gas block on it, gas tube, bedded it into the upper, installed adjustable gas on a new carrier for him with a sealed carrier key attached to the carrier with US-made fasteners and M4 spec torque, Red Loc-tite seal between the key and the carrier, tried different buffers, different ammo, still no joy.

                  Every Lilja, PF, and AA barrel I've used to build an upper with just worked out of the gate, and shot well too. Simple. I didn't need to drive back and forth from my home to the range and waste ammo over and over again, getting more and more frustrated.

                  Once AA started cranking out the 16" and 18" barrels, I've heard of people having occasional problems with them, which had to be sent back.

                  For the really "cheap" barrels, if they're running the reamers ragged and not doing their finish reaming correctly, you're going to end up with a short throat. I've seen it in every other cartridge I've ordered barrels in before as well, even from reputable places. .223 Wylde that would shoot lights out, but would blow primers on anything with a tangent ogive. Throw 69gr SMK and 77gr SMK in it, no issues at all. M193? Major safety issues left and right with pierced and blown primers. Would jam the lands terribly.
                  NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                  CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                  6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                  www.AR15buildbox.com

                  Comment

                  • Klem
                    Chieftain
                    • Aug 2013
                    • 3507

                    #24
                    Wise words from 52'...Good barrels are twice the price for a reason and if that reason is your expectation then you are gambling with a lot more than a couple of hundred dollars by buying cheap. If you use these things and expect results then the cost of ammunition will eventually outstrip the cost of the gun. In other words, the difference in what barrels cost is a small fraction of what you are buying in total, and what you end up realising for your money.

                    Comment

                    • LRRPF52
                      Super Moderator
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 8569

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Klem View Post
                      Wise words from 52'...Good barrels are twice the price for a reason and if that reason is your expectation then you are gambling with a lot more than a couple of hundred dollars by buying cheap. If you use these things and expect results then the cost of ammunition will eventually outstrip the cost of the gun. In other words, the difference in what barrels cost is a small fraction of what you are buying in total, and what you end up realising for your money.
                      You said it much more succinctly than I did.

                      I assign at least $100 of value for frustration with a gun that ruins the range trip, not including tangible expenses like range fees, gas, targets, ammo, and especially my time. I don't like driving back home from shooting feeling that way, because shooting trips have always represented a very positive experience in my life as a rule.

                      If there is a way for me to avoid experiencing that kind of disappointment, then it's the cheapest performance I can purchase.
                      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                      www.AR15buildbox.com

                      Comment

                      • Randy99CL
                        Warrior
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 562

                        #26
                        Okay I've had a couple of days to think about this.
                        Since the problem was likely caused by a worn reamer I wonder what the rest of the chamber and bore look like.

                        First thing is to see exactly what I'm dealing with. As I wrote, I'm not 100% confident in the numbers I measured. The Hornady gauge is the only way to really check it and I won't have one of those until next month (at least a week).
                        I'd like to see what the chamber and throat look like. I'm going to call around to see if someone has a bore scope and I'd like to make a chamber casting too.

                        If the chamber and bore look perfect (other than the short lead) I really like the idea of renting the reamer and cutting it myself. With a lifetime of experience working metal I would rather have a barrel I finished by hand than another unknown quantity from BCA...if the chamber and bore are perfect. That's a big "if."

                        I'm retired and my time is not as valuable as what others have stated here. I haven't fired this rifle, just checked it in preparation.

                        I wrote here a few months ago that I paid $301 for this upper and that even if I had to replace the barrel I'd not be disappointed. I really like the side-charger and there are not many others out there and none are cheap. The 15" handguard is great, all that I need or want. The BCG is nitrided, the bolt seems as good as any.
                        I got here a little too late to get one of the GB 20" barrels. If I could get one of those I'd jump on it.
                        The only thing I don't like about the BCA barrel is that it's a little heavy; it's about 1" straight until the gas block, then .750" straight to the muzzle.

                        Edit: Another reason for my wanting to ream it myself is that the reamer is listed as "benchrest quality" meaning that it is more precise than what the manufacturers use for production barrels.
                        That's why I wrote before that I could end up with a much better barrel than what BCA produces.
                        Last edited by Randy99CL; 02-24-2018, 04:43 PM.
                        "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

                        Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

                        Comment

                        • beastep
                          Bloodstained
                          • Jan 2018
                          • 82

                          #27
                          I wish you luck. Mine shoots very well with a lot of loads I have tried, I just have to load them shorter and watch for pressure.

                          Comment

                          • grayfox
                            Chieftain
                            • Jan 2017
                            • 4295

                            #28
                            My first "Grendel" was a nonstandard one, and truth be told it shot 123's really well, the Hornady factories and my handloads.
                            But not much else. And it was over-stretching the brass so brass life was eventually going to suffer.
                            Plus I had to have a separate resizing length for it as compared to my others...
                            So it was always just a little bit "odd." Always had to keep a separate batch just for it... always just a little hassle.

                            Now I like and do a lot of hand loading but I also like it when factory loads shoot well "just in case" I don't have time to get some loaded...
                            Bottom line, I sold it and bought a standard SAAMI to take its place.
                            I'm not looking back. For me, there is a value in not having to always fiddle with or have to adjust to a nonstandard, especially when the SAAMI works just great.

                            If you do decide to finish reamer it, I hope it works well for you and fixes the issues!
                            "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

                            Comment

                            • Randy99CL
                              Warrior
                              • Oct 2017
                              • 562

                              #29
                              Okay, my Hornady OAL gauge came today and it works great.
                              At first I wasn't very confident in my numbers, there seemed to be too much variation (about .015"), but when I checked 10 of the Hornady 95g V-max (with their plastic tips) they were all within .004" and I knew I was getting valid measurements.

                              So the average (of 10) COALs are:
                              Nosler CC 123g = 2.188"
                              Hornady 100g SP = 2.162"
                              Hornady 95g V-Max = 2.144"
                              Speer 90g TNT = 2.217"

                              Yep, the throat is at least .100" shorter than spec. I'm going to look closer at renting the reamer and seeing exactly how it's used. At this point I intend to ream it myself.
                              I won't touch it until I either look at it with a borescope or make a casting to really see what the problem is. Only a worn reamer?

                              Meanwhile I'm going to load about 40 of the Noslers with the minimum charge of TAC (25g) and seat the bullets .030 shorter than the tested COAL. Take it to the indoor range and start to break in the barrel.
                              Edit: Does that seem like a safe load?
                              Last edited by Randy99CL; 03-04-2018, 05:57 AM.
                              "In any war, political or battlefield; truth is the first casualty."

                              Trump has never had a wife he didn't cheat on.

                              Comment

                              • beastep
                                Bloodstained
                                • Jan 2018
                                • 82

                                #30
                                Im glad it works well for you. I need to get one of these some time. It looks like yours is pretty close to the same as my barrel. I think I have mine to where I can be happy with it though.

                                Comment

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