Powder advice please.

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  • beastep
    Bloodstained
    • Jan 2018
    • 82

    Powder advice please.

    I have a 20" BCA with a rifle length gas tube. Im shooting 123 ELDM but Im having to load them short, at about 2.20", in order to get the bullet off the lands of the short throat in this barrel.

    I started with CFE 223 and it shot ok but after reading how bad temp changes the velocity I wanted to switch powders. So I tried AR Comp and it shot really well but it just will not reliably cycle my bolt completely. 25-27.5gr it still would fail to lock back on an empty mag 2/3 of the time. That sucks because it shot real good and my ES and SD were very low. I guess its just too fast for my rifle length gas in this particular barrel. The only other powder I have on the shelf that will work is Varget and Im working on a load for it right now. So far everything I have shot with Varget has shot real well and the ES and SD were acceptable but I dont think Im going to be able to get the velocity I need. Now I believe that the burn rate from fastest to slowest is AR Comp, CFE 223, Varget. So Im thinking I need a powder slower than AR Comp but faster than Varget. I fully understand that just burn rate is only one part of the equation.

    So suggestions would be appreciated for a powder that will work with my gun that is temp stable and will give me better FPS than Varget. Ill stick with Varget if I have to but I really want closer to 2500fps.

    Hopefully when I get to screw a can on the end of it Ill be able to use AR Comp.

    Thanks guys.
  • Lone Hunter
    Warrior
    • Jan 2017
    • 170

    #2
    Why don't you consider IMR XBR 8208? It works very well. You also might want to contact LRRPF52 on here and pick up his books on loading the Grendel. Has a lot of different powders and loads in it. I think Varget is too slow for you. I load H335 for 85 gr bullets and IMR8208 XBR for the 123 ELD M with very good results. I tried CFE223 and it shot ok but not as good as 8208. I believe if you do a little research there is a sticky or sticky's on loading data here. Good Luck on your search.

    Comment

    • Lone Hunter
      Warrior
      • Jan 2017
      • 170

      #3
      Here is the link to the books

      Volume 1 & Volume 2 + 6.5 Grendel / 6mm AR Chamber Brushes Volume 1: AR-15 Reloading Basics Volume 2: Reloading for Hunting Two Pack of 6.5 Grendel / 6mm AR Chamber Brushes *** IMPORTANT *** SHIPS US Domestic (Includes Alaska & Hawaii)

      Comment

      • Klem
        Chieftain
        • Aug 2013
        • 3507

        #4
        If you don't like adjusting for temperature then choose single-based powders. Double-based powders are more temperature sensitive but they do give a little more velocity than single-based. CFE223 is a double-based powder.

        I suggest simplifying it to two lots of single-based powders;
        8208 for bullets up to 120grain.
        4895 for bullets heavier than 120grain.

        Comment

        • bj139
          Chieftain
          • Mar 2017
          • 1968

          #5
          I only loaded with H335 and with the 85gr Sierra, I got several 0.5MOA three shot groups.
          I just bought a pound of XBR-8208 but haven't tried it yet.

          Comment

          • beastep
            Bloodstained
            • Jan 2018
            • 82

            #6
            Originally posted by Lone Hunter View Post
            Why don't you consider IMR XBR 8208? It works very well. You also might want to contact LRRPF52 on here and pick up his books on loading the Grendel. Has a lot of different powders and loads in it. I think Varget is too slow for you. I load H335 for 85 gr bullets and IMR8208 XBR for the 123 ELD M with very good results. I tried CFE223 and it shot ok but not as good as 8208. I believe if you do a little research there is a sticky or sticky's on loading data here. Good Luck on your search.
            I believe that 8208 is even faster than AR Comp. Thats why I have not considered using it. I have a friend that loads with it so I could get a few loads off of him just to see if it will cycle.

            Comment

            • beastep
              Bloodstained
              • Jan 2018
              • 82

              #7
              Thank you for the advice and links. Ill have to do some more research. I cant afford to be buying powder that I cant use.

              Comment

              • Lone Hunter
                Warrior
                • Jan 2017
                • 170

                #8
                Originally posted by beastep View Post
                Thank you for the advice and links. Ill have to do some more research. I cant afford to be buying powder that I cant use.
                I hear that on the powder. Went to get some the other day and it had gone up $2 a pound. I am not loading hot with the 8208. As others have said the pressure will spike with the near max or above max loads. If your friend will give you some you'll be better off trying that. I load it (8208) out of my .264 LBC and Howa Mini Action and get good results. I also don't try to load max either. You can look through some of the sticky's right above this section as it has a lot of different loads.

                Comment

                • Goochylogic
                  Warrior
                  • Sep 2016
                  • 190

                  #9
                  I second the advice by Lone Hunter about the Grendel Books. I actually purchased both books before i had any parts to assemble while doing research on this caliber. The books are very well put together. Good job.

                  Comment

                  • Klem
                    Chieftain
                    • Aug 2013
                    • 3507

                    #10
                    Originally posted by beastep View Post
                    I believe that 8208 is even faster than AR Comp. Thats why I have not considered using it. I have a friend that loads with it so I could get a few loads off of him just to see if it will cycle.
                    Unless there's something wrong with your gun 8208 will cycle.

                    Be careful firing full-strength hand-loads from friends. Might be better if you just borrow some powder, enough for a few test rounds.

                    Comment

                    • ricsmall
                      Warrior
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 987

                      #11
                      Get u some 8208. I load everything from 100-123 grain in all my grendel ar rifles and bolt guns and it works. Start around 27 grs and work up to your max load. In a bear creek barrel it may be well under the normal 28.5 max. Most of the BCA barrels I’ve seen and read about are short throated.
                      Member since 2011, data lost in last hack attack

                      Comment

                      • beastep
                        Bloodstained
                        • Jan 2018
                        • 82

                        #12
                        I plan on getting those books whenever funds allow.
                        I know what my friends loads are at so Ill try a few of his to see if they will hold my bolt open before I buy a pound of powder.
                        My BCA does have a short throat and may be a factor in what powders my gun likes. Im having to load at 2.20" OAL on 123 ELDM.

                        I worked up some more Varget loads just to see what it will do since I already have Varget. My plan right now is to try 8208 when I get a chance.

                        Comment

                        • LRRPF52
                          Super Moderator
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 8569

                          #13
                          Originally posted by beastep View Post
                          I plan on getting those books whenever funds allow.
                          I know what my friends loads are at so Ill try a few of his to see if they will hold my bolt open before I buy a pound of powder.
                          My BCA does have a short throat and may be a factor in what powders my gun likes. Im having to load at 2.20" OAL on 123 ELDM.

                          I worked up some more Varget loads just to see what it will do since I already have Varget. My plan right now is to try 8208 when I get a chance.
                          Biggest thing you will have to take into account with your short chamber (that is below the SAAMI minimum chamber specs) is that it will build pressure faster than a SAAMI chamber, or any chamber with reasonable freebore. I would expect a chamber like that to blow primers with factory ammo, which is unacceptable.

                          Since you will have to load shorter with the ELD-M, you will reduce case capacity and internal case volume, which will also contribute to faster peak pressure, meaning you need to account for that in your considerations for max load.

                          In small volume cases like 6.5 Grendel, tiny changes in capacity can result in pressure spikes. Since your case volume is being reduced, that also limits how much fuel you have to pressure up the bore and hit the gas port with sufficient energy to cycle the action.

                          I would really make sure your gas system is sealed up around all junctions as best as possible, mainly the gas block and tube. Any leakage is going to rob you of needed carrier inertia.

                          I would also look at a slower-burning powder as a priority over accuracy because reliability comes before accuracy.

                          The best solution in your case is really getting your chamber finish-reamed so that it will allow at least 2.260" COL with a bullet like the 123gr ELD-M, which will give you the adequate room in the case for a good load.

                          There is no reason why a chamber should be leaving the factory with a 2.200" COL limit with 123gr ELD-M. That's a very short chamber since that bullet has a very streamlined ogive that should be pushing much farther forward. I would fix that first.
                          Last edited by LRRPF52; 02-20-2018, 09:44 PM.
                          NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                          CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                          6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                          www.AR15buildbox.com

                          Comment

                          • beastep
                            Bloodstained
                            • Jan 2018
                            • 82

                            #14
                            I agree with everything you said. I been starting lower with my loads and watching for pressure since Im loading short. Ive checked my gas system to make sure everything is on the up and up. I would get my barrel reamed but there is nobody anywhere near me that I trust to do it that I can actually get to do it.

                            Comment

                            • 1911man
                              Warrior
                              • May 2015
                              • 482

                              #15
                              Originally posted by beastep View Post
                              I agree with everything you said. I been starting lower with my loads and watching for pressure since Im loading short. Ive checked my gas system to make sure everything is on the up and up. I would get my barrel reamed but there is nobody anywhere near me that I trust to do it that I can actually get to do it.
                              I guess BCA is not stepping up to correct the problem? You might want to consider a new barrel. I know its costly but if you think about the amount of money your spending wasting shots trying to figure this out you will probably spend the same amount to just get another barrel. Like LRRPF52 suggested you really need to fix this chamber issue as it is causing you alot of problems that you are trying to work around in your loads. I have an AR15part.com barrel that shoots great that cost me $100 plus shipping, it has to be better than what you have going on with this short throat.

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