Muscle Memory 1

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  • SG4247
    Warrior
    • Aug 2013
    • 497

    #31
    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
    SG:

    1K dry fires a day? I wonder who keeps count.

    Maybe an Olympian but even then, difficult for me to believe. That would be about six or eight hours of dry firing.

    I use a SCATT Biathlon machine for dry firing. I try to go 15 strings prone and 15 standing per session. Takes me about 90 minutes and that is rapid fires. I imagine slow fire would take about six or eight hours for 1K rounds if the shooter would not go catatonic from sheer boredom after about two hours of it. The most important strings to me are 1 - 4 then 14 and 15.

    There are other things a person can do if they want to spend time. Visualization sessions between dry firing strings is a good one. Bottom line though, 1K dry fires a day is about 700 more than needed. Maybe 800 in terms of slow fire. However, could well be that is how they trained or maybe even train today. Personally, I think it is way too much and will lead to burn out.
    Seems like a lot to me as well. They trained all day, everyday, and did basically nothing else but eat and sleep. No job, and no distractions. I know that I would last about 30 min!

    He was at the Team USA Colorado Springs Olympic training facility, which still trains for Olympic shooting today.

    NRA F-Class Mid Range High Master

    Comment

    • Vasux86
      Warrior
      • Apr 2015
      • 108

      #32
      I have been chewing on this topic for a while and have some thoughts to share.

      I'll begin by explaining how this relates to motor plans for complex movements. A motor plan is a complex set of muscle movements that includes the information necessary to orchestrate some movement. The big factors are properly timed amplitude and direction of movement. Imagine all the activity that takes place when you perform a "simple" task such as drawing from a holster. It begins with your brain sending a signal down the spinal cord to execute some motor behavior (e.g., "bend shoulder at some angle, bend elbow at some angle, move thumb to some position, etc."). When the muscle groups receive the motor command, your body is sending feedback to the brain about whether or not the movement is on track (e.g., "elbow is too far back"). Your brain has to integrate this feedback and make corrections or continue with the motor behavior as prescribed. This is a constant feedback loop including motor neurons, sensory neurons, and the brain/spinal cord. Needless to say, complex movements can place an incredible demand on our limited cognitive resources, especially if the movements are unfamiliar and the brain is trying to simultaneously create a motor plan, execute a motor behavior, and integrate feedback. Difficulty is proportional to rate of execution, which causes errors when a new behavior is performed quickly. Hence the phrase- slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That being said, when some behavior is practiced, especially at a slow rate with minimal variability (more on that in a minute), it increases the rate at which one develops a motor plan. A motor plan minimizes variability (i.e., error), which decreases the need to make corrections to some movement and increases the rate at which the behavior can be performed. This also minimizes the use of the limited cognitive resources available at some point in time. Those cognitive resources can then be delegated for use elsewhere. So by practicing some behavior, we are providing the nervous system an opportunity to develop motor plans that are necessary for optimal performance. For more on this, read about how top athletes use focused practice to increase performance.

      Secondly, the number of repetitions required to develop a motor plan depends on many factors. Assuming that it requires some set number of repetitions is impossible. For instance, repeating a movement more consistently develops a motor plan more quickly. It allows the brain to "learn" the movement quicker because there is less variability. With less variability there is less need for your brain to figure out what exactly it is supposed to do when it executes some movement. Also, some people are just naturally built to develop motor plans more quickly. We probably all know someone who is blessed with the ability to be explained how to do something, try it a few times, and then is able to execute the movement consistently much quicker than others. The rate at which a person develops a motor plan also depends on various other biological factors- nutrition, how rested the person is, whether the person is distracted by external or internal stimuli at the time of learning, etc. There's more to be said on this, but the main point is that there is too much variability in the environment and biology to say that it requires some set number of repetitions to develop a motor plan or to consider a person to have developed "muscle memory."

      In the words of Mr. Gump, that's all I've got to say about that. Cheers.
      Last edited by Vasux86; 02-04-2016, 07:04 PM.

      Comment

      • LR1955
        Super Moderator
        • Mar 2011
        • 3355

        #33
        Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
        I have been chewing on this topic for a while and have some thoughts to share.

        I'll begin by explaining how this relates to motor plans for complex movements. A motor plan is a complex set of muscle movements that includes the information necessary to orchestrate some movement. The big factors are properly timed amplitude and direction of movement. Imagine all the activity that takes place when you perform a "simple" task such as drawing from a holster. It begins with your brain sending a signal down the spinal cord to execute some motor behavior (e.g., "bend shoulder at some angle, bend elbow at some angle, move thumb to some position, etc."). When the muscle groups receive the motor command, your body is sending feedback to the brain about whether or not the movement is on track (e.g., "elbow is too far back"). Your brain has to integrate this feedback and make corrections or continue with the motor behavior as prescribed. This is a constant feedback loop including motor neurons, sensory neurons, and the brain/spinal cord. Needless to say, complex movements can place an incredible demand on our limited cognitive resources, especially if the movements are unfamiliar and the brain is trying to simultaneously create a motor plan, execute a motor behavior, and integrate feedback. Difficulty is proportional to rate of execution, which causes errors when a new behavior is performed quickly. Hence the phrase- slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That being said, when some behavior is practiced, especially at a slow rate with minimal variability (more on that in a minute), it increases the rate at which one develops a motor plan. A motor plan minimizes variability (i.e., error), which decreases the need to make corrections to some movement and increases the rate at which the behavior can be performed. This also minimizes the use of the limited cognitive resources available at some point in time. Those cognitive resources can then be delegated for use elsewhere. So by practicing some behavior, we are providing the nervous system an opportunity to develop motor plans that are necessary for optimal performance. For more on this, read about how top athletes use focused practice to increase performance.

        Secondly, the number of repetitions required to develop a motor plan depends on many factors. Assuming that it requires some set number of repetitions is impossible. For instance, repeating a movement more consistently develops a motor plan more quickly. It allows the brain to "learn" the movement quicker because there is less variability. With less variability there is less need for your brain to figure out what exactly it is supposed to do when it executes some movement. Also, some people are just naturally built to develop motor plans more quickly. We probably all know someone who is blessed with the ability to be explained how to do something, try it a few times, and then is able to execute the movement consistently much quicker than others. The rate at which a person develops a motor plan also depends on various other biological factors- nutrition, how rested the person is, whether the person is distracted by external or internal stimuli at the time of learning, etc. There's more to be said on this, but the main point is that there is too much variability in the environment and biology to say that it requires some set number of repetitions to develop a motor plan or to consider a person to have developed "muscle memory."

        In the words of Mr. Gump, that's all I've got to say about that. Cheers.
        Vasux:

        Certainly a good theoretical explanation. No argument with the concept at all.

        So, now the hard part. Applying it.

        If you wish, what can someone apply from your comments that will make them a better marksman?

        LR55

        Comment

        • Vasux86
          Warrior
          • Apr 2015
          • 108

          #34
          Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
          Vasux:

          Certainly a good theoretical explanation. No argument with the concept at all.

          So, now the hard part. Applying it.

          If you wish, what can someone apply from your comments that will make them a better marksman?

          LR55
          I am not aware of any studies that have been done to apply the concepts I shared directly to marksmanship. However, one of the things that has been shown to be improve performance with top athletes is visualization. Stanford ran a study a few years ago with their gymnast. They had one group that went through some regiment where they visualized themselves completing a new movement. Another group did not do any visualization. Athletes in both groups then later performed the movement. The gymnast that visualized themselves successfully completing the movement had higher scores and, get this, increased flexibility. This study, among others, points to the impact the brain can have on motor behavior. I say all that to say that the role of the brain in executing a movement cannot be overstated.

          I have not done any research on this topic myself, just gathered information from other sources. From what I have read and shared with you though, it would make the most sense to set up the conditions to enhance learning of some behavior (the motor plan). This could be done by minimizing external and internal distractions, breaking complex movement into segments and later integrating them, beginning learning slowly, and making the behavior as consistent and conspicuous as possible. Visualization is apparently helpful as well. Put simply, minimize variability between repetitions while maximizing the focus on each repetition.

          If this doesn't answer your question, would you be able to provide more details about what exactly your trying to figure out? I may be missing the target here, pun intended.

          Comment

          • Vasux86
            Warrior
            • Apr 2015
            • 108

            #35
            Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
            What is 'muscle memory' and how does your muscle know if it is memorizing the right thing?

            LR1955
            "Muscle memory" is, put simply, the motor plan that I presented in my earlier discussion. There is really no way your body knows whether it is memorizing the "right" thing, it just remember what you do. One thing your body can do is recognize whether it is doing the "right" thing, meaning the motor plan. Your body makes this determination based on various feedback loops of sensory information. In the case of shooting, you can see when your shots are not hitting your aiming point. This is an example of one piece of feedback your body integrates to determine whether or not it is doing the right thing.

            Comment

            • LR1955
              Super Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 3355

              #36
              Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
              I am not aware of any studies that have been done to apply the concepts I shared directly to marksmanship. However, one of the things that has been shown to be improve performance with top athletes is visualization. Stanford ran a study a few years ago with their gymnast. They had one group that went through some regiment where they visualized themselves completing a new movement. Another group did not do any visualization. Athletes in both groups then later performed the movement. The gymnast that visualized themselves successfully completing the movement had higher scores and, get this, increased flexibility. This study, among others, points to the impact the brain can have on motor behavior. I say all that to say that the role of the brain in executing a movement cannot be overstated.

              I have not done any research on this topic myself, just gathered information from other sources. From what I have read and shared with you though, it would make the most sense to set up the conditions to enhance learning of some behavior (the motor plan). This could be done by minimizing external and internal distractions, breaking complex movement into segments and later integrating them, beginning learning slowly, and making the behavior as consistent and conspicuous as possible. Visualization is apparently helpful as well. Put simply, minimize variability between repetitions while maximizing the focus on each repetition.

              If this doesn't answer your question, would you be able to provide more details about what exactly your trying to figure out? I may be missing the target here, pun intended.
              Vas:

              Goals Setting, Imagery / Imagery Scripts, Self Talk, Attentional Focus, Relaxation Techniques -- all work. The problem that I see with many people is that they rarely use any of the Performance Enhancement / Mental Skills techniques in training and so they aren't prepared to use them in competition when it strikes them that they may be of value. Personally I view any of these techniques as a means of focusing attention on the right thing at the right time. It is kind of a survival technique providing the person knows his attention is wandering and that in order to succeed they must focus on the task again. To me this can mean a conscious focus on doing the task (which will be very slow) or simply to push some unnecessary thought out of the conscious and replace it with the thoughts that are necessary to succeed. It is not particularly hard to push a negative thought out of the conscious mind and replace it with something more beneficial to successfully accomplishing a task. The hard part is more likely to be able to focus on a single correct thing done at the right amount of energy (arousal) that allows the body to function without interference from the brain. There are areas where a person can do very well at a task but when they are outside of that zone due primarily to counterproductive thoughts or emotions, the chances of them doing very well disappear and good performance becomes luck more than deliberate.

              Anyway, that is my view but to get to your theory, certainly someone can use it to their benefit. This would be by performing the task at a pace where the movements are done as perfectly as possible with feedback from a coach or the person. I have also found out that in order to do so, it pays for the coach or trainer to ensure the person knows what right is. This is where people can really move apart in training concepts. I push what success is, looks like, and how it is quantified or qualified. The goal is to do well, to succeed, even if success is rare at the outset of learning a skill. Of course once they know what success is, they are more prepared to focus their attention on attaining success.

              Others tend to focus on physical action -- the movements that they think must take place for the end state to happen. One size fits all approach. It has its advantages in that it is easy to get a large group of people to a mediocre level of performance such as the military. It is poor because it forces people to do something that their body may not be too good at doing for various physical reasons. And, it normally emphasizes a strict process as more important than result. Plus it tends to focus on failure rather than success. The shooter looks in wonderment when he does everything he thinks must be done but misses time and again. This is because he was never taught to succeed, only to act.

              So, certainly a person can take your comments and use them to their benefit. Just that slow can be smooth but slow can also be slow. That's why most of the marksmanship problems faced by people on the Forum are because they do not shoot fast enough when they are testing loads. They need to understand that going slow allows the brain time to consciously input its opinion into the shots. So, guy either gets ahead of the trigger or behind the trigger but either way, they tend to do poorly. Then they go to LRRP52 wondering what is wrong with their barrel, optic, trigger, loads. He, he.

              Off to my sport for the weekend so be good!

              LR55

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                #37
                I think has a lot to do with why I find shooting on a cadence with only focus on a few things allows me to shoot in the .3's to .5's for 5rd groups.

                I use the integrated act of hold control when doing that, which blends sight picture, breathing, and trigger control into one fundamental.

                It only works with a very well-settled position that has the Natural Point of Aim oriented into the smallest center of my aiming point.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

                Comment

                • Vasux86
                  Warrior
                  • Apr 2015
                  • 108

                  #38
                  Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                  Vas:

                  Goals Setting, Imagery / Imagery Scripts, Self Talk, Attentional Focus, Relaxation Techniques -- all work. The problem that I see with many people is that they rarely use any of the Performance Enhancement / Mental Skills techniques in training and so they aren't prepared to use them in competition when it strikes them that they may be of value. Personally I view any of these techniques as a means of focusing attention on the right thing at the right time. It is kind of a survival technique providing the person knows his attention is wandering and that in order to succeed they must focus on the task again. To me this can mean a conscious focus on doing the task (which will be very slow) or simply to push some unnecessary thought out of the conscious and replace it with the thoughts that are necessary to succeed. It is not particularly hard to push a negative thought out of the conscious mind and replace it with something more beneficial to successfully accomplishing a task. The hard part is more likely to be able to focus on a single correct thing done at the right amount of energy (arousal) that allows the body to function without interference from the brain. There are areas where a person can do very well at a task but when they are outside of that zone due primarily to counterproductive thoughts or emotions, the chances of them doing very well disappear and good performance becomes luck more than deliberate.

                  Anyway, that is my view but to get to your theory, certainly someone can use it to their benefit. This would be by performing the task at a pace where the movements are done as perfectly as possible with feedback from a coach or the person. I have also found out that in order to do so, it pays for the coach or trainer to ensure the person knows what right is. This is where people can really move apart in training concepts. I push what success is, looks like, and how it is quantified or qualified. The goal is to do well, to succeed, even if success is rare at the outset of learning a skill. Of course once they know what success is, they are more prepared to focus their attention on attaining success.

                  Others tend to focus on physical action -- the movements that they think must take place for the end state to happen. One size fits all approach. It has its advantages in that it is easy to get a large group of people to a mediocre level of performance such as the military. It is poor because it forces people to do something that their body may not be too good at doing for various physical reasons. And, it normally emphasizes a strict process as more important than result. Plus it tends to focus on failure rather than success. The shooter looks in wonderment when he does everything he thinks must be done but misses time and again. This is because he was never taught to succeed, only to act.

                  So, certainly a person can take your comments and use them to their benefit. Just that slow can be smooth but slow can also be slow. That's why most of the marksmanship problems faced by people on the Forum are because they do not shoot fast enough when they are testing loads. They need to understand that going slow allows the brain time to consciously input its opinion into the shots. So, guy either gets ahead of the trigger or behind the trigger but either way, they tend to do poorly. Then they go to LRRP52 wondering what is wrong with their barrel, optic, trigger, loads. He, he.

                  Off to my sport for the weekend so be good!

                  LR55
                  I commend you for your critical thinking skills. Thank you for taking the time to challenge some of the thoughts so many shooters have been taught. It's clear that you have much more experience in coaching than I do. However, I can offer some thoughts based on my experience in shooting, limited coaching, and knowledge/experience in psychology.

                  First off, I am of the mindset that if something works (i.e., performance enhancement techniques), shooters need to do it. It doesn't matter if they are too lazy or confident to apply them enough in practice. If it works, it should be done. Shooting for practice is about building skills, not ego. Therefore, I believe that a lazy shooter does not preclude one from teaching performance enhancement techniques to help shooters succeed. It's like any other skill (i.e., trigger finger discipline), it only works if you use it. So maybe it comes back to selling the fundamental skills to shooters in training. Making sure they understand and appreciate the value of what they are learning.

                  Also, I really like your approach to coaching. It is important to understand what success looks like, and especially how to produce it. The best coaches I have had have taught me how to think about success and what I am doing to achieve it.

                  RE: slow being smooth and smooth being fast. This is just one step in the training process. It is important when your brain is learning a motor plan to go through it slowly because it minimizes error, which increases learning. As the motor plan is developed and practiced, speed will naturally increase. Similar to the notion that you have to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. Someone with limited experience trying to perform speed reloads is just ugly. It makes me want to look away. It's like an 8-month-old trying to run a 40. Skills have to be built up slowly and consistently before someone can perform a complex task quickly.
                  Last edited by Vasux86; 02-08-2016, 05:52 PM.

                  Comment

                  • LRRPF52
                    Super Moderator
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 8569

                    #39
                    For those that don't know, LR1955 has basically a lifetime of shooting and coaching experience coming from NRA High Power, retired from Army Special Forces (he was the OIC of 1st Special Forces Group's SOTIC Committee), and spent many years helping train the trainers and snipers/DMs from Panama in the 1970's (he was a Recon Platoon Leader down in the Canal Zone), all the way to the Stryker Brigades at Fort Lewis during OIF.

                    He also did his Master's Degree in Sports Training Psychology if I remember correctly, and is a wealth of information when it comes down to the minutia of brain-organ interface, feedback, and performance-based physiology, but he balances it well with a heavy leaning towards the blunt reality of keeping things simple that actually work, without going into the detail that he could.

                    Basically, when you ask what time it is, he just tells you, instead of how to build a watch. He could tell you how to build the watch, but he knows that most of the time, that isn't helpful for the discussion, as it will distract from what the intent is at the time.
                    NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                    CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                    6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                    www.AR15buildbox.com

                    Comment

                    • Vasux86
                      Warrior
                      • Apr 2015
                      • 108

                      #40
                      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                      For those that don't know, LR1955 has basically a lifetime of shooting and coaching experience coming from NRA High Power, retired from Army Special Forces (he was the OIC of 1st Special Forces Group's SOTIC Committee), and spent many years helping train the trainers and snipers/DMs from Panama in the 1970's (he was a Recon Platoon Leader down in the Canal Zone), all the way to the Stryker Brigades at Fort Lewis during OIF.

                      He also did his Master's Degree in Sports Training Psychology if I remember correctly, and is a wealth of information when it comes down to the minutia of brain-organ interface, feedback, and performance-based physiology, but he balances it well with a heavy leaning towards the blunt reality of keeping things simple that actually work, without going into the detail that he could.

                      Basically, when you ask what time it is, he just tells you, instead of how to build a watch. He could tell you how to build the watch, but he knows that most of the time, that isn't helpful for the discussion, as it will distract from what the intent is at the time.
                      I knew he was in the Who's Who of the shooting world, but didn't know all those details. Even more of an honor to be engaged in a discussion with him.

                      Comment

                      • bwaites
                        Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 4445

                        #41
                        Every time I think of working with LR1955 I am reminded of the old Bob Newhart skit, "Stop It" (look it up on YouTube, one of the funniest things on there!).

                        He has developed a "cut it to the bare bones" philosophy of shooting that is incredibly effective for people who are new shooters or long timers. I've watched him take people who had never shot past 100 yards, including my two sons, and have them regularly hitting steel at 700 yards in less than 4 hours of instruction.

                        Want to talk about proper breathing technique while shooting? His response is, "you learned how to breathe a long time before you learned how to shoot, the two are not mutually exclusive!" But he then will point out that pulling the trigger at the time of least movement during your breathing process, in the respiratory pause, will bring the best accuracy effect.

                        There simply is no BS when learning from him, and he accomplishes more in a shorter time by building confidence in the shooter than any precision teacher I have seen. When I was just starting 10 years ago, I had grave concerns that I would ever shoot at the level of my equipment. He pointed out that I never would, if that was my attitude. He told me that equipment was limited, it could never improve on its own, but that my potential was not limited by anything but my own thoughts and body. Within a year I was shooting in F class matches. I simply learn more being around him and the other teachers he has at Boomershoot every year than anything else I have ever done.

                        If you can get to Boomershoot and take the 2 day Precision Rifle course it will be the cheapest class you have ever had available to get to where you are going.

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
                          I knew he was in the Who's Who of the shooting world, but didn't know all those details. Even more of an honor to be engaged in a discussion with him.
                          V86:

                          Not in any 'Who's Who' and should not be considered anything particularly special.

                          I have always been interested in marksmanship and training so have seen a lot of techniques, heard a lot of theories, put in practice many of both, and even got paid for doing it for a number of years following my career. Probably the single most important thing is that I had the opportunity to devise and implement my own marksmanship training strategies for various Army units over about a twelve year period. And, wouldn't you know it? Just when I really got something going (after about ten years of constant adapting and learning), the opportunities ended due to one of the more prominent budget crisis in the Army circa 2012.

                          A very unique set of conditions allowed me to do what I liked. The conditions ended but at an apex so I can't complain. A very few guys did some very good things while under immense pressure and some have attributed their success to something we did in training that helped them succeed. I will also say honestly that nothing I thought particularly important was normally the one thing that popped into their mind and calmed them down enough to succeed.

                          As for Boomershoot, that one is another example of change and adaptation in order to provide folks with individually focused training under some very unique circumstances. It is a challenge every single year we do it.

                          I didn't do it myself and without a bunch of real focused guys, from unit level NCO's to the crew I have today at Boomershoot (Bill Waites and LRRP52 are two of my cadre), I wouldn't be saying any of this. They are the ones who sit there with shooters all day patiently working people through problems to succeed.

                          Am glad I did what I did for those years. Learned a lot about training Joes and civilians. Had a good time doing it, too. Glad it is over except for a few individual sessions and Boomershoot.

                          LR55

                          Comment

                          • Vasux86
                            Warrior
                            • Apr 2015
                            • 108

                            #43
                            Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                            V86:

                            Not in any 'Who's Who' and should not be considered anything particularly special.

                            I have always been interested in marksmanship and training so have seen a lot of techniques, heard a lot of theories, put in practice many of both, and even got paid for doing it for a number of years following my career. Probably the single most important thing is that I had the opportunity to devise and implement my own marksmanship training strategies for various Army units over about a twelve year period. And, wouldn't you know it? Just when I really got something going (after about ten years of constant adapting and learning), the opportunities ended due to one of the more prominent budget crisis in the Army circa 2012.

                            A very unique set of conditions allowed me to do what I liked. The conditions ended but at an apex so I can't complain. A very few guys did some very good things while under immense pressure and some have attributed their success to something we did in training that helped them succeed. I will also say honestly that nothing I thought particularly important was normally the one thing that popped into their mind and calmed them down enough to succeed.

                            As for Boomershoot, that one is another example of change and adaptation in order to provide folks with individually focused training under some very unique circumstances. It is a challenge every single year we do it.

                            I didn't do it myself and without a bunch of real focused guys, from unit level NCO's to the crew I have today at Boomershoot (Bill Waites and LRRP52 are two of my cadre), I wouldn't be saying any of this. They are the ones who sit there with shooters all day patiently working people through problems to succeed.

                            Am glad I did what I did for those years. Learned a lot about training Joes and civilians. Had a good time doing it, too. Glad it is over except for a few individual sessions and Boomershoot.

                            LR55
                            Well thank you for your service and for continuing to share your wealth of knowledge and experience with the regular Joe's, like myself. I have learned more about shooting from experienced shooters than I have from any other source.

                            That being said, I wonder if a part of this discussion is a matter of semantics. What is commonly known as muscle memory, you might view as "what success is, looks like, and how it is quantified or qualified," and I might view as a motor plan or some learning experience. I'm not sure how different these are in practice, without getting into the weeds of things.

                            Comment

                            • LR1955
                              Super Moderator
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 3355

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
                              Well thank you for your service and for continuing to share your wealth of knowledge and experience with the regular Joe's, like myself. I have learned more about shooting from experienced shooters than I have from any other source.

                              That being said, I wonder if a part of this discussion is a matter of semantics. What is commonly known as muscle memory, you might view as "what success is, looks like, and how it is quantified or qualified," and I might view as a motor plan or some learning experience. I'm not sure how different these are in practice, without getting into the weeds of things.
                              Vas:

                              More a motor plan as you theorized.

                              This whole thing started because I experienced far too many guys blaming poor performance (either themselves or someone else) on 'muscle memory'. It was a cop out, just like the typical blaming of poor marksmanship on 'breathing', or because of how someone put their finger on the trigger. Although breath control and trigger finger placement may be part of a problem, they are rarely if ever a primary problem and most of the time they are not a problem at all.

                              Not sure what the current excuse is for a failure in marksmanship but when the CQB stuff had its hold on the Army, the leadership used the false notion of muscles having a memory to force their Joes to endure hours of 'Ready - Up's with absolutely no way of getting a bit of feedback in terms of their ability to ID a threat, safely bring the rifle to bear, see a good enough sight picture, flip off the safety, pull the trigger well enough for success, then recover safely.

                              So, when someone started the 'Muscle Memory' stuff, I started having them prove it worked. After letting them dry fire at a full E Sil at 10 meters for as long as they wanted, and without having them move their feet, I would blindfold them and let them do a couple of controlled pairs with live ammo. I stood right next to them to ensure the barrel remained pointed in a safe direction. I let them do four or five controlled pairs. Of course, they missed the entire silhouette almost every single time. Any hit was pure luck. So much for Muscle Memory playing such a key role in marksmanship. Can't do real well if you can't see. So, what is better to train for a marksman? Seeing (a good enough sight picture) and moving the finger well enough for success or focusing training on the false notion that 'muscle memory' is the key to success.

                              No, I didn't ignore position but I also knew that position would be a natural outcome of efficiently bringing a rifle or carbine to the eye, pointing it well enough for success, and pulling a trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

                              It is funny that with all the muscle memory stuff, all the time spent getting into a text book position for Snipers, DM's, or just the average Rifleman, not once can I recall any of them telling me they actually got into such a position when they had to shoot back at someone. It all came down to seeing a good enough sight picture and pulling a trigger while keeping that 'good enough' sight picture.

                              So, that is why this whole thing started a few years ago.

                              LR55

                              Comment

                              • schrödinger's cat
                                Bloodstained
                                • Dec 2015
                                • 84

                                #45
                                For someone new to shooting as a whole, this has been fascinating. Thank you 1955

                                Comment

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