Muscle Memory 1

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    #46
    For someone new to shooting as a whole, this has been fascinating. Thank you 1955
    SC:

    Thank you.

    Just note that this approach was the result of requirements. If the requirements were pure accuracy and there was enough time to get into a rock solid position, my approach would initially place a lot of emphasis on position.

    At Boomershoot we spend a lot of time dealing with position because the requirements are extremely fine accuracy and the firing line is basically a farm field. Far from flat.

    LR55

    Comment

    • Vasux86
      Warrior
      • Apr 2015
      • 108

      #47
      Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
      Vas:

      More a motor plan as you theorized.

      This whole thing started because I experienced far too many guys blaming poor performance (either themselves or someone else) on 'muscle memory'. It was a cop out, just like the typical blaming of poor marksmanship on 'breathing', or because of how someone put their finger on the trigger. Although breath control and trigger finger placement may be part of a problem, they are rarely if ever a primary problem and most of the time they are not a problem at all.

      Not sure what the current excuse is for a failure in marksmanship but when the CQB stuff had its hold on the Army, the leadership used the false notion of muscles having a memory to force their Joes to endure hours of 'Ready - Up's with absolutely no way of getting a bit of feedback in terms of their ability to ID a threat, safely bring the rifle to bear, see a good enough sight picture, flip off the safety, pull the trigger well enough for success, then recover safely.

      So, when someone started the 'Muscle Memory' stuff, I started having them prove it worked. After letting them dry fire at a full E Sil at 10 meters for as long as they wanted, and without having them move their feet, I would blindfold them and let them do a couple of controlled pairs with live ammo. I stood right next to them to ensure the barrel remained pointed in a safe direction. I let them do four or five controlled pairs. Of course, they missed the entire silhouette almost every single time. Any hit was pure luck. So much for Muscle Memory playing such a key role in marksmanship. Can't do real well if you can't see. So, what is better to train for a marksman? Seeing (a good enough sight picture) and moving the finger well enough for success or focusing training on the false notion that 'muscle memory' is the key to success.

      No, I didn't ignore position but I also knew that position would be a natural outcome of efficiently bringing a rifle or carbine to the eye, pointing it well enough for success, and pulling a trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

      It is funny that with all the muscle memory stuff, all the time spent getting into a text book position for Snipers, DM's, or just the average Rifleman, not once can I recall any of them telling me they actually got into such a position when they had to shoot back at someone. It all came down to seeing a good enough sight picture and pulling a trigger while keeping that 'good enough' sight picture.

      So, that is why this whole thing started a few years ago.

      LR55
      Okay. Now I am understanding what your qualms are with the idea of muscle memory. Certainly you can't roll through a shoot house without eyesight and be effective, which you so cleverly demonstrated.

      Motor plans are much simpler than entering a room, doing your sweeps, identifying threats, determining whether friendly or foe, making a decision to engage, and then actually engaging. Motor plans are downstream of all this. After a shooter has already processed the information and is now engaging the target. At that point, I think there is something to be said about how past experience impacts the simple act of engaging a threat after all the information has been processed and a decision has already been made. Not to say that "muscle memory" explains performance, but I do believe that memory, or learning of some sort, plays a role in how effectively a person engages the threat.

      An anecdote from my own experience- when I went through Advanced Urban Combat, each shooter had an instructor over their shoulder evaluating their performance as they went through the shoot house. The instructors then gave specific feedback about whether or not shooters effectively engaged the target and would apply specific interventions based in this feedback (i.e., slow down until you can hit the target because fast shooting doesn't do you any good if you're missing). They would also tape weapons on friendly targets and tape non-threatening devices on threat targets. This forced shooters to identify whether or not there was a weapon before deciding whether or not to engage. Generally, there was a noticeable improvement in reaction time, shots on target, and less shots on friendly targets. I think this was partly due to focusing on processing speed, but also partly due to familiarity with the actions required to effectively engage a threat. I do not believe the improved performance was muscle memory, per se, but I do believe that a learning experience and interventions focused on specific skills improved performance. However, I never saw combat with any guys from that unit, so I cannot comment on how well the training transferred to a kinetic environment. The guys I have seen in combat definitely didn't rely on textbook methods, especially the Iraqis with their spray-and-pray room clearing SOP.
      Last edited by Vasux86; 02-10-2016, 02:43 PM.

      Comment

      • Vasux86
        Warrior
        • Apr 2015
        • 108

        #48
        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
        Vas:

        More a motor plan as you theorized.

        This whole thing started because I experienced far too many guys blaming poor performance (either themselves or someone else) on 'muscle memory'. It was a cop out, just like the typical blaming of poor marksmanship on 'breathing', or because of how someone put their finger on the trigger. Although breath control and trigger finger placement may be part of a problem, they are rarely if ever a primary problem and most of the time they are not a problem at all.

        Not sure what the current excuse is for a failure in marksmanship but when the CQB stuff had its hold on the Army, the leadership used the false notion of muscles having a memory to force their Joes to endure hours of 'Ready - Up's with absolutely no way of getting a bit of feedback in terms of their ability to ID a threat, safely bring the rifle to bear, see a good enough sight picture, flip off the safety, pull the trigger well enough for success, then recover safely.

        So, when someone started the 'Muscle Memory' stuff, I started having them prove it worked. After letting them dry fire at a full E Sil at 10 meters for as long as they wanted, and without having them move their feet, I would blindfold them and let them do a couple of controlled pairs with live ammo. I stood right next to them to ensure the barrel remained pointed in a safe direction. I let them do four or five controlled pairs. Of course, they missed the entire silhouette almost every single time. Any hit was pure luck. So much for Muscle Memory playing such a key role in marksmanship. Can't do real well if you can't see. So, what is better to train for a marksman? Seeing (a good enough sight picture) and moving the finger well enough for success or focusing training on the false notion that 'muscle memory' is the key to success.

        No, I didn't ignore position but I also knew that position would be a natural outcome of efficiently bringing a rifle or carbine to the eye, pointing it well enough for success, and pulling a trigger without pointing it somewhere else.

        It is funny that with all the muscle memory stuff, all the time spent getting into a text book position for Snipers, DM's, or just the average Rifleman, not once can I recall any of them telling me they actually got into such a position when they had to shoot back at someone. It all came down to seeing a good enough sight picture and pulling a trigger while keeping that 'good enough' sight picture.

        So, that is why this whole thing started a few years ago.

        LR55
        Jerry Miculek is definitely an outlier in any shooting debate, but here is an interesting video nonetheless- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lZqmUW8SYeM

        Comment

        • rabiddawg
          Chieftain
          • Feb 2013
          • 1664

          #49
          For someone new to shooting as a whole, this has been fascinating. Thank you 1955
          Absolutely!!
          Knowing everthing isnt as important as knowing where to find it.

          Mark Twain

          http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...2-Yd-Whitetail

          Comment

          • bwaites
            Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 4445

            #50
            Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
            Jerry Miculek is definitely an outlier in any shooting debate, but here is an interesting video nonetheless- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lZqmUW8SYeM
            Jerry is a freak, but I know of one other very similar in skill level that could do the same kind of thing. But I don't think of that as muscle memory. That's a combination of multiple gifts.

            Comment

            • Vasux86
              Warrior
              • Apr 2015
              • 108

              #51
              Originally posted by bwaites View Post
              Jerry is a freak, but I know of one other very similar in skill level that could do the same kind of thing. But I don't think of that as muscle memory. That's a combination of multiple gifts.
              Agreed.

              Comment

              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3355

                #52
                Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
                Jerry Miculek is definitely an outlier in any shooting debate, but here is an interesting video nonetheless- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lZqmUW8SYeM
                V86:

                Anyone can shoot a 20" X 20" target at 7 or 10 yards for five consecutive shots and probably repeat it two or three times before missing one. Maybe even eight consecutive shots. Although I don't have data on it, I would bet that once you go over six or maybe eight that the chances of missing a shot rise pretty fast. Note the video the shots were drifting down and to the left as he shot his string.

                Back to the point that anyone can do this feat although not as fast as Miculek. When I can get on a range that lets me, I will periodically close my eyes and shoot a couple of shots, just to see how much my position changed between shots. I was getting pretty good at two or three shots before missing. I had to shoot paper but I would think steel would be a better choice because of its immediate feedback. And that shooting faster would also increase the potential of hits because the pistol would not have moved as much between shots.

                I think success came more regularly due to my balance improving while holding the pistol. Note Miculek is really focusing his attention and eyes totally on the steel target as the blindfold is placed over his eyes. His head does not move even when he raises his hands and draws then shoots. He is maintaining excellent balance and I bet that is a key to his success. I say this from regular practice balancing and doing some movements while having my eyes shut. Yes, I know the inner ear is the key to balance but eyesight lets you judge how well you are balanced. Stand on one leg and close the eyes and see how long you can balance on one leg. It is a decent way to get a bit better in about any physical activity, shooting being one of them.

                Not sure what Miculek focuses his attention on when doing this or his other fantastic feats but sure would like to know. Not that his techniques are universally effective but just to know. In many cases, guys like him are not focused on anything. Their minds are blank and they let themselves do the task without interference. It is pretty difficult to do on demand. In other cases their attention is totally focused on one single thing that is the key to their success. When guys get into trouble is when their attention is focused on more than one thing or on the wrong thing.

                LR55

                Comment

                • bwaites
                  Moderator
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 4445

                  #53
                  Balance is perhaps the ultimate in muscle memory. It requires instantaneous and recurrent feedback from muscles to the brain and from the balance center in the brain to the muscles. As adults we have learned to perceive certain cues as more important than others, such as vision vs inner ear. As children, we are easily made dizzy by simply spinning us on a merry go round. As adults, our brain accepts visual clues as more important than those made by our inner ear regarding spacial orientation, and we ignore that spinning middle ear and take the visual cues. It is what allows gymnasts, ice skaters, dancers, etc. to spin dozens of times without becoming dizzy. However, take away visual cues, and we are easily discombobulated. Put adults in dark rooms, and they have a much more difficult time than children do in finding there way out. The longer adults are without sight, the more difficult things become, until we learn to rely on our middle ear again for balance, and for most of us that takes a long time.

                  Comment

                  • Vasux86
                    Warrior
                    • Apr 2015
                    • 108

                    #54
                    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                    V86:

                    Anyone can shoot a 20" X 20" target at 7 or 10 yards for five consecutive shots and probably repeat it two or three times before missing one. Maybe even eight consecutive shots. Although I don't have data on it, I would bet that once you go over six or maybe eight that the chances of missing a shot rise pretty fast. Note the video the shots were drifting down and to the left as he shot his string.

                    Back to the point that anyone can do this feat although not as fast as Miculek. When I can get on a range that lets me, I will periodically close my eyes and shoot a couple of shots, just to see how much my position changed between shots. I was getting pretty good at two or three shots before missing. I had to shoot paper but I would think steel would be a better choice because of its immediate feedback. And that shooting faster would also increase the potential of hits because the pistol would not have moved as much between shots.

                    I think success came more regularly due to my balance improving while holding the pistol. Note Miculek is really focusing his attention and eyes totally on the steel target as the blindfold is placed over his eyes. His head does not move even when he raises his hands and draws then shoots. He is maintaining excellent balance and I bet that is a key to his success. I say this from regular practice balancing and doing some movements while having my eyes shut. Yes, I know the inner ear is the key to balance but eyesight lets you judge how well you are balanced. Stand on one leg and close the eyes and see how long you can balance on one leg. It is a decent way to get a bit better in about any physical activity, shooting being one of them.

                    Not sure what Miculek focuses his attention on when doing this or his other fantastic feats but sure would like to know. Not that his techniques are universally effective but just to know. In many cases, guys like him are not focused on anything. Their minds are blank and they let themselves do the task without interference. It is pretty difficult to do on demand. In other cases their attention is totally focused on one single thing that is the key to their success. When guys get into trouble is when their attention is focused on more than one thing or on the wrong thing.

                    LR55
                    LR- I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to understand your position on this. You are saying that anyone would shoot a target blindfolded. However, you are also saying that the service-members you trained couldn't. I trust you can help me make sense of this...

                    Comment

                    • LR1955
                      Super Moderator
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 3355

                      #55
                      Originally posted by Vasux86 View Post
                      LR- I'm not trying to be difficult, but I am trying to understand your position on this. You are saying that anyone would shoot a target blindfolded. However, you are also saying that the service-members you trained couldn't. I trust you can help me make sense of this...
                      V86:

                      No problem.

                      I am pretty positive that Miculek rehearsed what he did, either live a number of times or dry a number of times, maybe just visualized it, but he did rehearse it. And so he went ahead and did it when he believed with certainty that he could do it. This type of thing is his way of having fun and earning a living. Miculek is also probably the most talented and skilled speed shooter on earth.

                      GI's on the other hand don't get the time or resources to do such things and I am also pretty positive that blindfolding someone and letting them shoot on a military range would be frowned upon to say the least.

                      Anyone can do this task though. All they need is the belief they can, the motivation to continue to try until they do, and the resources for them to succeed. Miculek embodies the notion that confidence plus focused training will bring success.

                      Guys who wanted to try this, I let try. A bunch got into it because it was a challenge for them and they believed they would eventually succeed.

                      It wasn't something I let them do for a long time and wasn't a regular part of our training. It was a good way to show what needed training though, seeing and moving a finger.

                      LR55
                      Last edited by LR1955; 02-16-2016, 11:06 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Vasux86
                        Warrior
                        • Apr 2015
                        • 108

                        #56
                        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                        V86:

                        No problem.

                        I am pretty positive that Miculek rehearsed what he did, either live a number of times or dry a number of times, maybe just visualized it, but he did rehearse it. And so he went ahead and did it when he believed with certainty that he could do it. This type of thing is his way of having fun and earning a living. Miculek is also probably the most talented and skilled speed shooter on earth.

                        GI's on the other hand don't get the time or resources to do such things and I am also pretty positive that blindfolding someone and letting them shoot on a military range would be frowned upon to say the least.

                        Anyone can do this task though. All they need is the belief they can, the motivation to continue to try until they do, and the resources for them to succeed. Miculek embodies the notion that confidence plus focused training will bring success.

                        Guys who wanted to try this, I let try. A bunch got into it because it was a challenge for them and they believed they would eventually succeed.

                        It wasn't something I let them do for a long time and wasn't a regular part of our training. It was a good way to show what needed training though, seeing and moving a finger.

                        LR55
                        Fair enough. It's sounds like we agree on most everything. I'm not sure why it's still feels like we are disagreeing... Maybe because I'm being challenged, which I appreciate.

                        Comment

                        • ShooterScott
                          Unwashed
                          • Dec 2016
                          • 9

                          #57
                          It is kind of an overused term, but because it's something that I don't think is going away, we might as well try and make our own definition of it. I think the best way to think about it is an almost instinctive reaction that you have honed in your behavior. Like any sport, doing it without really thinking about it.
                          Love shooting over anything else -- full time manufacturer worker, part time blogger

                          Comment

                          • zcostilla
                            Warrior
                            • Aug 2017
                            • 110

                            #58
                            I know I'm reviving an old thread, but hopefully have something of value to add. I'm recovering from major surgery to remove my pancreas, spleen, appendix, and portion of small intestine because of how severe my pancreatitis and deal with neuropathy (the same way an amputee does). Once a nerve fires represtedly, the nerve path begins to change, making it easier to fire the next time. This is a huge issue with chronic pain, and why some people don't realize how debilitating it is. There are more nerve endings in the pancreas than any other abdominal organ, so when my neuropathy acts up, and multiple severed nerves fire at once, it is absolutely excruciating, and pain medication doesn't always work.

                            Now if we apply this to sports training of any kind, whether it is shooting a gun or a basketball free-throw, it helps us understand the adage "practice makes perfect" (which to my basic training instructor's chagrin never proved to be true). But with more and more practice, my brain formed a memory that made it easier to perform a task repeatedly bepless thinking and more reaction was involved, and without my knowing it, made those nerves which were used in completing the tasks more prepared for the next successive action by becoming more efficient. I do not recall if there is any "preloading" with the chemical processes involved in firing the synapses, but this is all a big part of what people mean by "muscle memory". Unfortunately, it's so misused, that it often loses its significance, and in the way we understand it means that it is not really an effective excuse for error because it means repeated incorrect actions.
                            -Zac

                            Husband, Father, Veteran. Grateful for my redemption.

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