Muscle Memory 1

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  • appleseed-kdc

    #16
    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
    AK:

    Here is something that I wonder about when someone talks about driving a car as being done by the subconscious. If so, how come a person is exhausted after a long drive?

    LR55

    Two separate issues. I'm sure you remember how awkward and loose control you had when first started driving. Drifting, always correcting, were totally focused and didn't want any other distractions.
    Once it became subconscious/automated, then driving one handed, eating, listening relaxed to the radio, yada...yada.

    You get tired because it isn't the act of driving per se (keeping the vehicle in the lane). Its the other cars, pedestrians, trees etc. that your eyes are always tracking, and your brain is processing, as you drive. That is a lot of very fast visual information to process. Something the brain isn't really designed for, but can still handle. In the old days, we didn't travel very fast.

    YMMV.

    The point I was making in my previous post was that you train/practice until the action moves from conscious to unconscious memory. BUT...if you have bad form/technique, that is what you will get. It is a lot harder to unlearn/replace once learned.

    You still have to think about the shot consciously, range, size, movement, lead, bullet drop. But the act of holding/supporting the rifle, using your support and trigger elbows, sling position and tension, trigger finger position and squeeze, respiratory pause, can be automated ie sub-conscious.

    The music one was good but also think of basics like walking and speech.
    Last edited by Guest; 12-06-2011, 02:04 PM.

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    • #17
      If we're driving subconsciously, we and the rest of society are in serious trouble. I am more focused when driving than most other tasks during the day...

      Front close sweep, front far sweep, rear view mirror, left side view, right side view, do I need to check blinds...repeat...intersection approaching DANGER AREA...check left then right for red light runners and pedestrians..blow through it faster than normal speed...slow down a bit..front close sweep, front far...

      Yeah, I'm paranoid...helps keep you on the edge of awareness where you need to be. I also pay close attention to exactly what I'm ding while driving, steering wheel manipulation, throttle response and lag time, while thinking through every possible worst-case scenario that could happen in that moment.

      My thoughts while driving would terrify everyone if they could see what I see...could make a great Final Destination movie.

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      • txgunner00
        Chieftain
        • Mar 2011
        • 2070

        #18
        Deep thoughts man....

        I'm with LRRPF52. Our minds can make our bodies go way beyond what is commonly thought to be our physical limit. Mental acuity and situational awareness should be given much more emphasis in marksmanship training. Most people can adapt and make better decisions in the heat of the moment if they can figure out how to allow it to happen. I think we hear so many cliche phrases such as muscle memory from "instructors" because it's much easier communicate in terms of physical mechanics than mental temperament.
        NRA life, GOA life, SAF, and TSRA

        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

        George Mason, co-author, 2nd Amendment.

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        • appleseed-kdc

          #19
          Makes a mental note NOT to post anything that requires reading, comprehension and critical thinking skills beyond a Two level, Black and White understanding.

          Message ends...OUT.

          NOTE: Last post on this thread.


          Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
          If we're driving subconsciously, we and the rest of society are in serious trouble. I am more focused when driving than most other tasks during the day...

          Front close sweep, front far sweep, rear view mirror, left side view, right side view, do I need to check blinds...repeat...intersection approaching DANGER AREA...check left then right for red light runners and pedestrians..blow through it faster than normal speed...slow down a bit..front close sweep, front far...

          Yeah, I'm paranoid...helps keep you on the edge of awareness where you need to be. I also pay close attention to exactly what I'm ding while driving, steering wheel manipulation, throttle response and lag time, while thinking through every possible worst-case scenario that could happen in that moment.

          My thoughts while driving would terrify everyone if they could see what I see...could make a great Final Destination movie.

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #20
            Originally posted by Alex4922 View Post
            Boy, this is some deep s**t ! I want to have some time to re read this thread. LR--- the idea behind NPOA is that even if you do use isometric muscle tension while taking the shot that tension is balanced. You are not fighting against poor body position. In hindsight NPOA probably has little to do with muscle memory.

            Later A
            ALEX:

            Actually, I think NPA exemplifies the concept and yes, the isometric tension balances and thus stabilizes.

            Now I got to get this thread focused again.

            LR1955

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            • #21
              Ya know, if you have a problem with the term muscle memory, don't blame me. I didn't invent the term.


              However, I know you know perfectly well what I am referring to when I use the term "muscle memory". It's a been used a long time and is an excepted term.

              Enjoy.

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              • LR1955
                Super Moderator
                • Mar 2011
                • 3355

                #22
                Originally posted by Mutt View Post
                Ya know, if you have a problem with the term muscle memory, don't blame me. I didn't invent the term.


                However, I know you know perfectly well what I am referring to when I use the term "muscle memory". It's a been used a long time and is an excepted term.

                Enjoy.
                Mutt:

                Sure I have problems with the term because most of the people using it do so because they have no clue what is going on with a shooter. It has become the 'your breathing is wrong' excuse for poor performance.

                That is why I am interested in how people define the term.

                You relayed the saying that it takes 7000 repetitions of X to induce this muscle memory so I asked why 7K? Maybe you know or maybe you heard something that actually makes sense.

                LR55

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                • #23
                  LR,

                  I can see where you are coming from. I'm just so used to hearing and using the term in the same context and probably automatically assume everyone knows the term for what I know it for. But, I guess that isn't always the case. I can see where a term like that gets thrown out and passed along enough time to muddle and confuse the meaning and intent. I bet it gets thrown around rather loosely over on ARFCOM (I don't go there anymore).

                  When I was in law enforcement, they hammered us hard with muscle memory. Where it came into play the most was when drawing from a holster, aiming and shooting accurately. The same was true for shotgun and rifle. First teach the correct weapon ready carry position (low ready), then practice the shoulder, aim, sweep the safety, front sight press, cycle, reload (or mag change) etc. With pistol, it was always ..... Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. We would practice the same motions over and over. Snap, draw, clear, point, stance, front sight, press (the trigger), reload, repeat. They wanted us to be able to draw and get on target without much thought. Bascially reacting to circumstances. I also taught for some time. In most of the curiculum, it taught about muscle memory and that's where the 7000 repetitions came from. I can't remember all the curiculum, put alot still sticks with me. I'm pretty sure almost all the information actaully came from FBI statistics, since most training curiculum are based on current FBI training, stats and case study. All of which crosses over to much of the firearms training I've either participated in, taught or attended. So, when I teach someone how to shoot (in civilian life), I usually teach them the basics first and explain to them why it is so important to be able to repeat the act over and over. That way, once they do develope better marksmanship it's easier to reproduce results, since the basic principles are already automatic.

                  Why 7000??? ...... No idea, that's just what they taught. Not sure who came up with it. But, if you know anyone that's ever taught at FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center ..... they teach the FBI, DOD, Secret Service etc. academy) they mave have a better idea. I bet if you emailed or mailed them about any info they may have on muscle memory, they may help you out.

                  I'm not saying anyone here is wrong. Some of the posts are a little beyond basics though.


                  ETA: Here's a decent article ............ http://www.actiontarget.com/tactical...tors-shooters/

                  Here's another one ............. http://www.policeone.com/columnists/...muscle-memory/

                  This is a pretty good example ..... http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4224871136293#
                  Last edited by Guest; 12-08-2011, 03:19 AM.

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                  • bwaites
                    Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 4445

                    #24
                    Gentleman, one of the reasons that we invited LR1955 to serve as the Marksmanship Moderator was because of his vast experience training and coaching military and civilian shooters.

                    Although he is retired from the Army, he is anything BUT a conventional "the Army way is the ONLY way" thinker. He has evaluated what has worked to teach and coach, and some of his ideas may not fit what has come to be thought of as the "conventional" teaching and coaching method.

                    He is very open to ACTUAL performance enhancing techniques, and his posts here are often of the "evaluate your sacred cow and see if it REALLY is the best way" nature. His purpose is to make YOU evaluate what you do and decide if it might be done better in a different way.

                    Although he is somewhat brusque in his writing at times, his intent is to make you think through your points, and defend them with sound argument, so that the results you talk about can be repeated by others.

                    When he questions you, it is not because he thinks you don't know what you are talking about, but because he wants you to clarify what your thought process is so that less experienced shooters can duplicate what you do if at all possible, IF IT WORKS!

                    Having spent many hours with LR1955, and having watched several hundred new shooters learn from him and his staff, I appreciate his ability to get people who have never shot at any significant distance to accomplish things they never thought possible.

                    Is his way the ONLY way? Of course not! But he will make you evaluate what works and why, and that is his purpose.

                    Please continue to contribute, since many have minimal experience at this kind of shooting, and every idea might have some merit. Re-examine what your "sacred cows" are, and see if there isn't something you can do to improve your shooting, or help with a newbie!

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                    • Harvest123

                      #25
                      Muscle memory, as I understand it, is related to repetition of movement. The Term "muscle memory" is a misnomer. No muscles have memory. The brain in conjunction with the rest of the body learn repetitive motions so that they come more easily. Kinda a Darwinian thing. Typing is an ideal example of "muscle memory." Takes time and a lot of initial effort and repitition. Yes, neurons are attached to the mucsles that move the body, but it is the strengthening of the motions via repetition that helps the police or military or citizen that make us quicker, more accurate, etc.

                      What I leaned in school, and what has helped me in many things I do. Like they say, How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

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                      • Harvest123

                        #26
                        One more thing. State of mind and awareness are also a form or "muscle memory" with no muscles. When you are trained to be "situationally aware" it has nothing to do with muscles. You learn patterns of your surroundings, sounds, sight, etc that Spec ops are masters of. Police are the same way on the street. Small indicators let them know where the bad guy is and what he is doing. Just wanted to throw that in.

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                        • Kleinerk
                          Unwashed
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 6

                          #27

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                          • SG4247
                            Warrior
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 497

                            #28
                            I am acquainted with a former Olympic shooter who went through some extensive leading edge training.

                            When I asked him what his secret to accurate shooting was and he said simply, "1000 dry fires a day".

                            I was floored. That is a quite a lot of practice!

                            That's how important practice and repetition was considered at that time.
                            NRA F-Class Mid Range High Master

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                            • Klem
                              Chieftain
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 3507

                              #29
                              My take on this concept is a psychology term called 'scripting'. I do not believe muscles have memories however our brain does. All knowledge, and specifically behavioural or action beliefs are stored not only in schemas but within schemas, there are scripts. These are efficiency mechanisms that allow us to navigate through life without having to figure things out for the first time, every time.

                              For example, driving a car. The first time is full of stress and clumsiness. We are connecting disparate knowledge in organised patterns to achieve a sequential task. In time and with practise by evoking these scripts we can not only drive efficiently but multi-task while driving, eating, thinking, listening to music, almost effortlessly. Through repetition we hone our scripts which are constructed neural connections allowing us to act/behave. Opening a door without thinking about how to do it the first time. Immediate action drills when the weapon stops almost as if we are not thinking. The more repetition (practise) we do the more precise our scripts will be - the more fluid our motions will be, the more likely our body will be in the correct posture, and the less we are required to concentrate on performing the sequenced behaviour.

                              Perform a physical task often enough and we can almost convince ourselves it is automatic and without cognition. But it is still our brain thinking it through just acting with more precision and more efficiently by evoking honed scripts.

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                              • LR1955
                                Super Moderator
                                • Mar 2011
                                • 3355

                                #30
                                Originally posted by SG4247 View Post
                                I am acquainted with a former Olympic shooter who went through some extensive leading edge training.

                                When I asked him what his secret to accurate shooting was and he said simply, "1000 dry fires a day".

                                I was floored. That is a quite a lot of practice!

                                That's how important practice and repetition was considered at that time.
                                SG:

                                1K dry fires a day? I wonder who keeps count.

                                Maybe an Olympian but even then, difficult for me to believe. That would be about six or eight hours of dry firing.

                                I use a SCATT Biathlon machine for dry firing. I try to go 15 strings prone and 15 standing per session. Takes me about 90 minutes and that is rapid fires. I imagine slow fire would take about six or eight hours for 1K rounds if the shooter would not go catatonic from sheer boredom after about two hours of it. The most important strings to me are 1 - 4 then 14 and 15.

                                There are other things a person can do if they want to spend time. Visualization sessions between dry firing strings is a good one. Bottom line though, 1K dry fires a day is about 700 more than needed. Maybe 800 in terms of slow fire. However, could well be that is how they trained or maybe even train today. Personally, I think it is way too much and will lead to burn out.

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