Muscle Memory II -- Position

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    Muscle Memory II -- Position

    From MMI folks differ in their definition of muscle memory but one thing in common is that when people discuss muscle memory, they mean position development.

    I contend that from position development comes the neurological strengthening that allows someone to attain a confident position under any condition. The more you do some physical action, the more efficient the brain and nervous system become in commanding the body to do that action. More efficiency means faster as well as precise.

    An observation is that few if anyone has mentioned the visual aspect of marksmanship and the development of a conditional response or reflex of trigger finger when the brain registers a good enough sight picture. I would think that to a good degree the speed of this action is more important than trying to train the body to be highly precise in holding a rifle up.

    Lets say you were to coach someone in marksmanship where the individual was not allowed to use artificial support such as a bench rest or bipod.

    Aside from the technical stuff, would you start by training them to identify a perfect sight picture with a fast and smooth trigger pull or would you focus your attention more on the physical actions needed to attain a solid physical position?


    LR1955

  • #2
    I would focus on the physical actions to get a good position. If you try to shoot as fast as you get a good sight picture you are in a losing race and will disturb that good sight picture and pull the shot. K

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    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #3
      Originally posted by rkflorey View Post
      I would focus on the physical actions to get a good position. If you try to shoot as fast as you get a good sight picture you are in a losing race and will disturb that good sight picture and pull the shot. K
      RK:

      The neurological strengthening makes for efficiency which leads to speed. Your MMI post on muscle memory is a pretty good way of describing this. Being fast on the trigger will come naturally as the individual becomes more confident that what he is seeing in terms of sight picture tells him that his position is good enough.

      As for going too fast on the trigger with new shooters? I don't think that is too common. Most of them go too slow, allowing them time to second guess their sight picture and thus jerk the trigger. Normally a trainer or coach has to speed them up in order to get some consistency from them.

      Your opinions?

      LR1955
      Last edited by LR1955; 12-08-2011, 10:30 PM.

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      • #4
        I am a neurosurgeon by trade, and there is a story about Harvey Cushing, the father of modern neurosurgery, having one of his residents come over to the house while the staff watched him play the piano. They determined that there was not enough time to consciously process the thought of pressing the keys with timing and the right order. When learning the piano, you learn good posture and position, and then by repetition are able to do the motor actions to reproduce the music that you hear as you do it, and it occurs in subconscious circuits that are much shorter and do not require conscious processing. Only by much practice and subconscious learning can this occur. I see no reason to expect a difference in learning to place a shot into a sight picture. Once we learn the proper positions and mechanics of discharging the weapon under control, we begin the process of repetition, so the subconscious circuits can then learn to place the shot into the point of impact visualized, much faster than we can think of the individual processes required to do so. If we start of with poor mechanics, it will be harder to maintain the control to be as accurate.

        Of course, "muscle memory" is a misnomer. The muscles remember nothing (unless that is what one has between his ears). But the patterns of position sense and control can be learned at a level no longer requiring complex conscious input, which is just another way of saying exactly what LR1955 said.

        I vote for initiating proper mechanics, balance, and technique, then working through repetition to gain speed with subconscious learning.

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        • #5
          Agree, when proper body position is achieved you have NPOA nailed. Speed is easier because the weapon comes down from recoil into...the natural point of aim. In Appleseed shooters are taught the riflemans cadence. Shots are fired every two seconds using npoa, it prevents overthinking the shot thus building accurate speed. Admitted, in fast moving combat precision is often impossible. The Appleseed training is most valuable to those who would use a battle rifle to neutralize the enemies carbine armed troops beyond their effective range. Easy with our Grendels.

          Alex

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          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #6
            FoF / Alex:

            Yes, but it is the visual system that sees what is perceived as 'good enough' and starts the process of firing the shot.

            So, would you start by training them to identify a perfect sight picture with a fast and smooth trigger pull or would you focus your attention more on the physical actions needed to attain a solid physical position?

            Understand the next step is expenditure of a huge amount of time and material to actually develop that position. This effort and resource expenditure must have a very clear purpose.

            LR1955

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            • #7
              I would start with the physical actions to get a solid position. When training new rifle shooters I saw those that got into a solid position quickly, shot better and more confidently. I asked them and the response was pretty consistant. They felt that they had more time (relative) to take the shot. Those that struggled to get into position felt that they were taking to long and rushed the shot.
              Taking more time in a training cycle to practice the basics paid dividends when it came to live fire and qualifications. Once the basics are learned shooters appear more confident shooting from unsupported or unusual positions. K

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              • #8
                Once you have learned to find the NPOA and used it for a time you find yourself getting into it as you achieve target detection without conscious thought. You will have to adjust a bit as time allows.

                As to training time, Appleseed can regularly take novice shooters and have them shooting near 4 moa on reduced size targets to a simulated 500 yds in two days. This is from field positions with mag changes and strict time limits.

                Sorry, I get kinda carried away talkin about those guys. Alex

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree with rkflorey.

                  Yes, I believe that trigger pull and sight picture is very very important. But, I think it's putting the cart before the horse.

                  I believe that you won't get too far with trigger pull and a good sight picture alone if you can't first put buttstock to shoulder, hand to grip, cheeck to stock, support arm supporting, finger placement on trigger. And, be able to opperate the bolt release, safety and mag release without looking and/or even thinking aobut it. Bringing the rifle to your head and not head to rifle. Use dominant eye. And yes ..... breath properly. Once you learn to do these functions repeatably and properly, then a person is able to concentrate on sight picture and trigger pull. Which when everything is put into play .... together .... it builds a better shooter.

                  You can actually learn the basics and practice them without ever firing a shot. I still practice drawing, changing mags etc (but not nearly as much as I used too)..... without firing. It allows a person to teach themselves important concepts without having to expend ammo, targets, etc. It is important to have someone there that can coach them too. I would teach the basics, then sight picture and trigger pull, then live fire.

                  That's just my opinion though.

                  Comment

                  • LR1955
                    Super Moderator
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 3355

                    #10
                    Guys:

                    This is turning into a damn good professional discussion. Hopefully others on the forum can pick up some good things.

                    Let me play Devil's Advocate for a second.

                    How does the shooter develop position without first being totally comfortable that he knows what a good sight picture looks like? Isn't the end state of a position attaining a consistent sight picture?

                    LR55

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                    • jwilson1985

                      #11
                      i believe a good read to....to your question before you pull the trigger you must have a sight on what you are shooting at. Without training or lots of round counts i dont think someone will know what the proper sight picture is. also how does one control the mind when your mind tries to say run and everything is going crazy around us,if one finds their self being shot at vs range time.training
                      Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                      Guys:

                      This is turning into a damn good professional discussion. Hopefully others on the forum can pick up some good things.

                      Let me play Devil's Advocate for a second.

                      How does the shooter develop position without first being totally comfortable that he knows what a good sight picture looks like? Isn't the end state of a position attaining a consistent sight picture?

                      LR55

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The last several years of LE recruits I helped train had the most trouble with staying focused on a task. When I saw that ability in a recruit they seemed to be able to bring all the elements of shooting together. The largest group I am sad to say was the group that seemed to wander away mentally in the middle of a practice session. I believe that focus can be learned and that it helps when Murphy shows up and all hell breaks loose.
                        That focus doesn't remove fear or stop that little voice that says run like hell. It puts it aside and lets you deal with the situation, pay attention to the threat.
                        I think the military was the best at that training, but from talking to friends who served even they started to see and have to deal with the same problems with recruits we saw in the civilian sector.
                        Focusing on those small tasks one at a time, then combining them with dry fire and manipulation skills until the shooters are confident saved time, money and made life easier for the student and the instructor. OK I will step off the soap box now and let someone else rattle on now.... K

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #13
                          Originally posted by rkflorey View Post
                          The last several years of LE recruits I helped train had the most trouble with staying focused on a task. When I saw that ability in a recruit they seemed to be able to bring all the elements of shooting together. The largest group I am sad to say was the group that seemed to wander away mentally in the middle of a practice session. I believe that focus can be learned and that it helps when Murphy shows up and all hell breaks loose.
                          That focus doesn't remove fear or stop that little voice that says run like hell. It puts it aside and lets you deal with the situation, pay attention to the threat.
                          I think the military was the best at that training, but from talking to friends who served even they started to see and have to deal with the same problems with recruits we saw in the civilian sector.
                          Focusing on those small tasks one at a time, then combining them with dry fire and manipulation skills until the shooters are confident saved time, money and made life easier for the student and the instructor. OK I will step off the soap box now and let someone else rattle on now.... K
                          K:

                          I have been around this business for many years and wish I had a dollar for every time someone said it was the recruit(s) that lacked something, not the training doctrine or trainers.

                          Many times someone says the individual is not paying attention because he is not performing to a standard. He is probably paying too much attention to doctrine that is most likely impossible for a human being to accomplish with any degree of consistency.

                          We ought to hold off on the topic of training execution and coaching for now but you can be assured I will make it a thread very shortly.

                          LR1955

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                          • #14
                            LR & Co,

                            I am thoroughly enjoying the read -- and am slowly coming to an understanding of why I had difficulty with precise rapid fire in competitive shooting, even though I could do reasonably well in slow-fire precision shooting with the pistol. I did OK with the NRA "Rapid Fire" where we had ten seconds to do five shots at the same bullseye. My hiccup was doing the International Style competition where we had five seconds to shoot five different targets. I tended to lose the squeeze and to jerk the trigger in this faster-paced competition.

                            It seems that there is something of a chicken and egg situation with positioning. The good news is that the proper sight picture can be illustrated in several different ways, and can be practiced to a limited extent using rests so the shooter can develop comfort that that is indeed a sight picture that works. Then a coach can help the shooter find a good position. After that it is learning to smoothly go into position under appropriate instruction, coaching and lots of repetition.

                            In my view, the smoothly getting into the position is the first place where what we popularly call muscle memory comes into play.

                            The slow-careful trigger squeeze has remained a conscious act in my shooting.

                            The truly new idea for me is that the smooth trigger pull needs to be practiced so it becomes a subconscious act! Knowing that might have made a difference for me many years ago.
                            Last edited by Guest; 12-09-2011, 02:05 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I know that whenever I index, or position myself, it is in relation to the target based on how my natural point of aim is oriented to the target from previous shooting experiences on those types of targets.

                              When I get in the prone for a longer range target, I look intently at the target in the distance and focus on the smallest aspect of it as I lower myself, also locating a dominant reference point in the target area that I can anchor off of since it is common to get lost in the FOV of the scope.

                              The point is that the target determines my position, regardless of the range, and this helps immensely with NPOA. I also "settle" the gun into the position before I take the shot so the first shot isn't the settler, and follow-on shots have a higher probability of grouping closer to the first, or holding closer to POA.

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