12 inch PSA 6.5G Upper results...... 1st Range trip.

[mdewitt71]

So I got the newly aquired 12" PSA upper out to the range today.... put it against my 18" GrendelHunter and had a pretty great range session till the crowds started coming in.
I usually shoot on Mondays when I am off from work so being a Saturday, the lanes we a bit more busier than I would of liked but, I still got shoot several boxes of ammo.



Here are some stat numbers for those that are interested.

12 inch PSA 1:8 SS
123gr Hornady American Gunner bulk HPBT = 2201 FPS ave with SD of 14.7 (2" to 2.55" groups)
123gr Hornady ELD-M Black = 2265 FPS ave with SD of 13.2 (1.4 to 1.7" groups)
123gr Hornady Custom SST Factory= 2277 ave with SD of 11.8 (2.9 to 3.2" groups)

18 inch Satern 1:8 SS Fluted
123gr Hornady American Gunner bulk HPBT = 2446 FPS with SD of 14.3 (.75 to 1.2" groups)
123gr Hornady ELD-M Black = 2492 FPS with SD of 3.4 (.6 to .9 inch groups)
123gr Hornady Custom SST Factory= 2496 FPS ave with SD of 11.7 (1.1" to 1.35" groups)

I had a Primary Arms 1-6 ACSS Gen2 scope on the 12 inch and the lil etched center dot (2MOA) was alot larger than the 1" stickers I was shooting at on paper so, with a better optic, I am sure I could get the groups even tighter.
All American Gunner ejected at 3:00 and the ELDM and SSTs piled up about 3:30.
There is def a recoil difference in the 12 inch from the 18 inch, I did notice that haha. Not bad, just not as easy to watch the target downrange after the trigger was pulled. I may opt for a different muzzle device in the future.
Straight outta the box, I didn't think the 12" PSA did that bad, I even took the American Gunner and SSTs out to steel at 200 yards with it.





Well worth the $349 IMHO....

[VASCAR2]

Great report thanks for posting!

[meatsweats]

Great report, definitely sounds like a fantastic deal.
MS

[CaptnC]

I got to know....


I'm sure a bunch of guys are thinking it, just don't want to ask....


Why a 12" barrel?

While your report is well done with some great info. I would bet most knew going in that the 12 would suffer greatly from such a short barrel.

IMO...the 18" is an absolute minum barrel length, 20" gains a lot velocity over the 18" (mine are 18" and 20") and I'm sure the 24" would gain a little more velocity. Maybe not as much as the 2" jump over the 18", but some.

A buddy has a 24" that is almost finished, so hopefully I will get to see if the extra 4" are worth having.

Any way....thanks for the detailed range report...it was very informative.

Plus seals the deal for me...to not bother with a barrel less than 18"...

[Sticks]

Lot of people don't like the weight, hunt in thick brush/wooded areas, hunt suppressed (can be all of the preceding). Putting a 6.5" 19+oz can on an 18" or 20" barrel, then trying to stalk around in a lot of brush a mile from your transport and still be stealthy...not happening.

A suppressor on a 12" pistol puts it about the same length as a 16" rifle. These tests have confirmed that the pistol can get the needed velocities to get expansion with some of the preferred hunting ammo, and still be accurate enough at the ranges they hunt at.

I am speculating here based on what I have read.

I don't hunt, and my typical response to people complaining about the weight of a rifle - "Grow stronger". I attended several 2 day advanced carbine courses with a 16" and Mk12" that were very heavy by most standards (the 16" was 9.5# empty, and the Mk12 was 11+) . Lot of the guys in the classes were getting worn out by lunch whereas I was not phased in the least. Course, I was a field service tech for a paving company, so a lot of the tools I use frequently out weigh my rifles.

[mdewitt71]

I got to know....

I'm sure a bunch of guys are thinking it, just don't want to ask....

Why a 12" barrel?

While your report is well done with some great info. I would bet most knew going in that the 12 would suffer greatly from such a short barrel.

IMO...the 18" is an absolute minum barrel length, 20" gains a lot velocity over the 18" (mine are 18" and 20") and I'm sure the 24" would gain a little more velocity. Maybe not as much as the 2" jump over the 18", but some.

A buddy has a 24" that is almost finished, so hopefully I will get to see if the extra 4" are worth having.

Any way....thanks for the detailed range report...it was very informative.

Plus seals the deal for me...to not bother with a barrel less than 18"...

I have a 18" a 12" and soon a 24" in Grendel... and 6 different lengths from 7.5" to 24" inch with .223/5.56
Why? Because I can and find a use for each one.

From your eye's the "12 would suffer greatly from such a short barrel".
From mine and the others on here that have a 12" and shoot 300- 500 yards with it; know differently.
Would I go shorter than 12" in a Grendel, No... but, at 12" it's a pretty amazing lil 6lbs fully rigged out and capable system.

[Bearcatrp]

Am finding out the more I shoot my 12 inch Grendel, the tighter the groups are. Hornady bullets never shot very well but the Speer 120 gold dots are shooting fairly well for me. As was posted above, different size barrel rifles have different jobs. I like the compactness of the 12 inch. To each their own.

[mdewitt71]

Yea I'm gonna try 90gr handloads tomorrow outta it....

[LRRPF52]

I got to know....

I'm sure a bunch of guys are thinking it, just don't want to ask....

Why a 12" barrel?

While your report is well done with some great info. I would bet most knew going in that the 12 would suffer greatly from such a short barrel.

IMO...the 18" is an absolute minum barrel length, 20" gains a lot velocity over the 18" (mine are 18" and 20") and I'm sure the 24" would gain a little more velocity. Maybe not as much as the 2" jump over the 18", but some.

A buddy has a 24" that is almost finished, so hopefully I will get to see if the extra 4" are worth having.

Any way....thanks for the detailed range report...it was very informative.

Plus seals the deal for me...to not bother with a barrel less than 18"...

With my 12" and that Hornady American Gunner, I was drilling the 800yd buffalo sils at one of the ranges I prefer for most of my LR work in-State. On the 400-500yd targets, you can really hear the impacts far better than 5.56 77gr.

I have one of the Faxon group buy barrels, and it's cranking out Federal 120gr BTHP Match at 2384fps (10rd avg). I haven't chrono'd any of the 123gr Hornady yet.

90gr Federal TNT AE load shoots 2683fps out of my 12" as well.

BC and twist rate are more important than mv. If I can have all 3 in a reasonable package for what I'm doing, that's great too, but for a compact AR15, a 10.5"-12.7" Grendel is currently unmatched in performance. Let's take the OP's 123gr Hornady SST as an example and put it next to a 16.3" AKM/AK47 or 16" AR15 in 7.62x39.

By 75yds, the 123gr SST has exceeded the speed and energy of a 123gr 7.62x39 since the BC is so low on the flat-based, short, fat projectiles for that cartridge, even when they're leaving the muzzle faster than a much shorter 6.5 Grendel.

With that little 12" Grendel and the 123gr SST, the OP has 1846fps impact speed and 931 ft-lbs at 250yds. For hunting out to 200yds, it's more than capable of anchoring medium game.

Where are the main differences between the short barrel Grendel and an AK or 16" AR15 in x39?

.450 G1 BC for the 123gr AG, .462 for the SST, and 1/8 twist.

.268 BC for the 123gr 7.62x39

For the 123gr ELD-M, it gets even better since it will have a .481 BC in that Mach region from a 12" barrel with OP's measured mv.

The Short Barrel Rifle and Pistol Grendels are one of the best ways to help people convert from the old way of how we were raised to look at rifle cartridges, and into the new way of understanding the role that BC plays in external and terminal performance.

[CaptnC]

Brief version of what I did earlier.

My first three bow kills were done stalking WT deer. All three one shot kills with a longbow. So I know the challenges of tight places with maximum size version hunting tool. It's not tough.

If it's that tight who wants to rattle a bullet through all the limbs?

When I went on my far West Texas DIYS Aoudad hunt. I carried a 15+lb 300wm rifle...knowing I would have to walk the entire time because of limited access on the property. While my 300wsm that weighs nearly half sat at home in the safe. I cared a 15lb rifle and 30lb pack from before daylight until several hour after dark for three days. I'm 18 days short of 59yo. I'd do it again if I get drawn on that hunt again in a second.

The 7.62X39 comparison...not sure where that came from...because I'm talking the velocity of the exact same ammo being shot in different barrel lengths.

If your "all about BC"...you get to enjoy the maximum benefit of all that BC the faster you push said bullet.

If I build another Grendel it will sport a 24" barrel....so I can use the EXACT SAME AMMO and receive more of the benefits of those high BC bullets!

[mdewitt71]

I am sure your 24"barrel will shoot.... but, this thread is about a 12" Grendel; some get it significance- some don't.
I am sure for those that do, will and can use the numbers accordingly.

Back to the OP;
Severe weather last week so, I am hoping to get out with it and try some 90gr TNT loads and report on them.

[CaptnC]

I know that doesn't look like a short version...but it is...

7.62X39...sad little cartridge. IMO a huge improvement over the 5.56 for hunting big game. When I built my 7.62X39 AR, I went with a 20" barrel to get the most out of it. 50 to 75 yards it was a hammer on hogs...killed seveal deer with it too.


Ok back to the 6.5 Grendel flame thrower...which it is....because a lot of your powder is being burned after the bullet is gone.

My 20" shooting a 120gr Gold Dot with 28.3gr of H335 @ 2525fps is very clean, so I'm pretty sure I'm getting a fair good burn before the bullet leaves the barrel.

In my world...I want my pennies worth of powder pushing my 120gr Gold Dot...not making a big fire ball at the muzzle.

But that's just me...FLAME ON!


Yes...pun intended!

[Keef]

My 12" is my favorite.....but I never thought about the pennies I was wasting......oh wow, now I thinking about all the dollars I waste on other stuff!

[CaptnC]

It's like having a 1,000hp dragster and put 4" wide slicks on the back...it's cool, loud and looks impressive. But if most of that HP goes up in smoke...what a waste.

You will get to the end of the track...just a lot slower than you could have!

[Keef]

I'm not totally sure you know what you are talking about..... I would say it's more like having a 400hp car and a 450hp car. Both will be super fun and plenty capable of getting you killed and you might not notice that much of a difference between the two in use.