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Thread: Midway Satern 6.5 Grendel barrels

  1. #41
    vfrdrvr
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    LRR. I probably shouldn't respond - I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing match over it. I'll be honest though, as one who was intrigued by the cartridge and only wanted to find a way to start shooting it, I don't think they way Bill A. and AA handled the situation helped matters very much. Why not do what Baer did and make the reamer open source? I suspect that might have worked out better for all concerned. But, it was Bill's to do with as he wanted. And that's cool. I don't think I have a dog in this fight. I'm just a guy who likes to shoot interesting guns.

    Now I don't know why Satern and Baer bailed on the Grendel chamber and began selling a variant. All I know for sure is - they did. I'm sorry, but the explanations from AA just don't hunt. If it's a fabulous cartridge (and I think it is), why can't everyone chamber for it and all make a living? Did Baer and Satern (and whoever else) decide to sneak around behind Bill's back and create a similar design just to screw him? Why would they? I can't think of a reason.

    So, yes, I got turned off. Now I'm turned on. But, no I'm not a true believer. I like my lbc, quite a lot actually. I may get a bolt gun chambered for the Grendel cartridge some day, although I can't say which chamber I'd use. I like snug chambers and tightish necks. In my experience they tend to be more accurate. I really would like to see a Grendel chamber/reamer print, though. Now that it's SAMMI'd, will that be generally available? I checked PTG and, although they offer a Grendel reamer, it's not on their SAMMI list yet. Of course it may be available now. If so, could someone point me in the right direction?

    First, though, I'm parts gathering to build a 6x45.
    Last edited by vfrdrvr; 02-14-2012 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #42
    Chieftain BjornF16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    The fact that several barrel shops are using some other chamber has been stopping me from ordering from them. I don't want a bolt that has the wrong depth for the Grendel extractor rim dimensions, and I don't want a .295" or .297" or .292" neck.
    Ditto...I've no interest in supporting non-Grendel 6.5mm/.264" chambers in the AR platform.

    This did push me to just "make" my own SBR...all IAW the unconstitutional (IMNSHO) NFA.

  3. #43
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfrdrvr View Post
    LRR. I probably shouldn't respond - I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing match over it. I'll be honest though, as one who was intrigued by the cartridge and only wanted to find a way to start shooting it, I don't think they way Bill A. and AA handled the situation helped matters very much. Why not do what Baer did and make the reamer open source? I suspect that might have worked out better for all concerned. But, it was Bill's to do with as he wanted. And that's cool. I don't think I have a dog in this fight. I'm just a guy who likes to shoot interesting guns.

    Without a single, unified standard, there would have been no chance at a SAAMI specification and acceptance. Look at all the different 6.8 chambers, and yet the SAAMI accepted chamber is now vilified as being the wrong one! AA allowed anyone who wanted to follow the Grendel spec to make Grendels. There was no fee, they just required that you use the actual Grendel specifications. That's why little companies could afford to build Grendels. Making the reamer open source would have opened a can of worms, because anyone who decided they thought a .295 neck was better would have made a .295 neck Grendel, leading to what happened when Hornady released their ammo and all those non-Grendel chambers had issues.

    Now I don't know why Satern and Baer bailed on the Grendel chamber and began selling a variant. All I know for sure is - they did. I'm sorry, but the explanations from AA just don't hunt. If it's a fabulous cartridge (and I think it is), why can't everyone chamber for it and all make a living? Did Baer and Satern (and whoever else) decide to sneak around behind Bill's back and create a similar design just to screw him? Why would they? I can't think of a reason.

    Satern and Les Baer made business decisions, that was their right. Contrary to what lots of people would have you believe, it had nothing to do with anyone making a living. At least part of Les Baer's decision was that he wanted to use an other than Grendel chamber, making it as accurate as they could with a single, specified load. The Grendel chamber was specifically designed to be accurate with as many bullets between 85-140 grains as possible. There are some compromises there. Alexander Arms licensed the name to anyone who would build to the Grendel spec. Having enough rifles out there to that spec was part of the reason that Hornady decided to take on the ammunition, and make it a SAAMI cartridge. Without that, it simply wouldn't have happened, because Hornady wouldn't have known what spec to make the ammuntion to. Note all the issues with 6.8 ammunition, and the "Combat" loads, and other variants.

    So, yes, I got turned off. Now I'm turned on. But, no I'm not a true believer. I like my lbc, quite a lot actually. I may get a bolt gun chambered for the Grendel cartridge some day, although I can't say which chamber I'd use. I like snug chambers and tightish necks. In my experience they tend to be more accurate. I really would like to see a Grendel chamber/reamer print, though. Now that it's SAMMI'd, will that be generally available? I checked PTG and, although they offer a Grendel reamer, it's not on their SAMMI list yet. Of course it may be available now. If so, could someone point me in the right direction?

    I wouldn't use the standard Grendel chamber for a bolt gun. Heck, Bill Alexander has said that it isn't the best option for a bolt gun. I'd certainly talk to stokesrj, he's built a smoking bolt gun and chambered it to his specs. Speedy Gonzales has built some too, and I've heard his are great as well. As for the chamber drawing, I suspect you'll be able to get if from SAAMI, though they are notoriously slow at getting that information out there.

    First, though, I'm parts gathering to build a 6x45.
    Without AA having been consistent about toeing the line with the proper Grendel specs, all these other companies couldn't, (or wouldn't) have played the game. Did it slow adoption by other companies? Probably. But now we have a SAAMI standard, and everyone can build to that, or tell people that they have a similar, but different, chamber. That will cause some headaches, but if you buy one of those, you should be able to know it is different BEFORE you buy, not after!
    Last edited by bwaites; 02-14-2012 at 10:19 PM.
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  4. #44
    vfrdrvr
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    @ Bwaites: thanks for the history. However, as I mentioned before, there are a number of things that still don't add up, to me anyway. No matter. That horse is long dead. Whatever else, however, I do agree wholeheartedly that
    if you buy one of those [variant chambers], you should be able to know it is different BEFORE you buy, not after!
    Take care.

  5. #45
    stokesrj
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    I really think all of this is much to do about nothing, I have owned a Les Baer 6.5 Grendel before he decided to go the .264 LBC route. I don't think you could make an AR any more accurate than that one is. I have also built bolt rifles with tighter necks. They don't perform better, but they surely perform good enough, less than .5 MOA. I also had a reamer built with no lead and a neck tight enough to require turning but I never used it, because the standard Grendel Chamber is more than accurate enough without turning necks and soft seating. I routinely get five shot groups at 100 yards that are .15-.19 MOA. I can and have shot flys at 100yards with it. So why do you need these other chambers, based on my experience you don't.
    Here is a test target shot by Les Baer himself with my first Grenel upper that now belongs to Blackfoot on this forum.

    Now, I would like to see any LBC chamber that will outperform this one. If you have one please post it.
    The chamber is less important than the quality of the barrel, that's what really matters.
    Bob

  6. #46
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfrdrvr View Post
    @ Bwaites: thanks for the history. However, as I mentioned before, there are a number of things that still don't add up, to me anyway. No matter. That horse is long dead. Whatever else, however, I do agree wholeheartedly that

    Take care.
    No problems, take care and shoot well!!
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  7. #47
    Cbubac
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    Question

    Alright guys I'm feeling I should ask the next question, and I am in now way trying to steer the thread in a different direction. What would be a good factory load to run for 5 shot groups punching paper. I am a competent shooter with 20 yrs experience since my 1st pellet gun but am now worried about using 6.5 Grendel factory loaded rounds. I'm a noob to the caliber, not the gun and have plans to bench rest out to 800 yards with my currently available range. For those not reading the previous post its a 24" ".264 lbc" Thanks in advance and I really appreciate such an active thread, I've learned quite a bit in the last few days.

    Also does the difference in the chambers the .264 lbc is a wildcat.

    Corey
    Last edited by Cbubac; 02-14-2012 at 11:27 PM.

  8. #48
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    There is nothing wrong with the .264 LBC chamber. It was designed specifically to shoot the Amax 123 factory loads well. I don't have one, but my first try would be LBC 123 Amax factory loads, then Hornady factory loads.

    The chamber itself was designed by LBC to shoot that bullet especially well. I'm not sure it will shoot it any better than the standard Grendel chamber, because the Grendel chamber seems to shoot everything pretty well and there seem to be some loads that are amazing, even straight out of the factory box.

    My 28" barrel shoots factory Hornady 123's into less than 2 MOA 20 shot groups at 1000 yards. That's not good enough to win an F Open competition, but its pretty doggone amazing for a factory load! I really would like to shoot it in good conditions and see how good a 5 shot group I could get.

    I suspect the LBC might be capable of similar groups, depending on who chambered it and what barrel it is.

    Good luck!
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  9. #49
    vfrdrvr
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cbubac View Post
    Alright guys I'm feeling I should ask the next question, and I am in now way trying to steer the thread in a different direction. What would be a good factory load to run for 5 shot groups punching paper. I am a competent shooter with 20 yrs experience since my 1st pellet gun but am now worried about using 6.5 Grendel factory loaded rounds. I'm a noob to the caliber, not the gun and have plans to bench rest out to 800 yards with my currently available range. For those not reading the previous post its a 24" ".264 lbc" Thanks in advance and I really appreciate such an active thread, I've learned quite a bit in the last few days.

    Also does the difference in the chambers the .264 lbc is a wildcat.

    Corey
    You should have no problems shooting 6.5 Grendel factory rounds. I'd recommend starting with the Hornady "factory" 123 A-Max. If you get the itch to reload, my .264 has a preference for 8208 XBR. It likes the Amaxes and does OK with 108 Scenars (see an earlier post about seating dies). I haven't tried anything lighter. I have a box of 123 SMKs I'm going to try out when I finish some other projects. Hogdon's website has a web based loading guide that will give you a decent starting point. Just start low and work up. So far, mine seems like loads a bit under max.

    It will consistently put 5 amaxes into 1/2 inch at 100 and would, I think, do better with a more talented finger on the trigger. I wish I could testify about my 1000 yard groups, but I can't see that far.
    Last edited by vfrdrvr; 02-15-2012 at 02:20 AM.

  10. #50
    Chieftain Variable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the .264 LBC chamber. It was designed specifically to shoot the Amax 123 factory loads well. I don't have one, but my first try would be LBC 123 Amax factory loads, then Hornady factory loads.

    The chamber itself was designed by LBC to shoot that bullet especially well. I'm not sure it will shoot it any better than the standard Grendel chamber, because the Grendel chamber seems to shoot everything pretty well and there seem to be some loads that are amazing, even straight out of the factory box.

    My 28" barrel shoots factory Hornady 123's into less than 2 MOA 20 shot groups at 1000 yards. That's not good enough to win an F Open competition, but its pretty doggone amazing for a factory load! I really would like to shoot it in good conditions and see how good a 5 shot group I could get.

    I suspect the LBC might be capable of similar groups, depending on who chambered it and what barrel it is.

    Good luck!
    I thought the LBC chamber was originally designed for the Black Hills 123gr. Sierra load? Did they change it?

  11. #51
    Warrior
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    The best factory load I found is AA 123 Scenars (24" AA Shilen barrel).

  12. #52
    Chieftain txgunner00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfrdrvr View Post
    ,... I don't think they way Bill A. and AA handled the situation helped matters very much...
    From what I understand he was trying to prevent out of spec variants from making it to the market and causing problems. I've heard of multiple variants of the .264 lbc from the same manufacturer even. This is not a big deal for someone that really knows what they are getting but 95% of shooters don't get that deep into the details.

  13. #53
    vfrdrvr
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgunner00 View Post
    From what I understand he was trying to prevent out of spec variants from making it to the market and causing problems. I've heard of multiple variants of the .264 lbc from the same manufacturer even. This is not a big deal for someone that really knows what they are getting but 95% of shooters don't get that deep into the details.
    I haven't heard too much about multiple variants on the lbc. Just for S&G I've been chasing and collecting chamber/reamer prints for year or so. I have a couple of them under my desk pad. Most of the variations on the lbc I've seen are very small (.001 in the neck and a bit more in the lead/throat). What have you seen/heard?

  14. #54
    Chieftain txgunner00's Avatar
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    The search is not finding if for me but there was a manufacturer discussed here that had 2 or 3 different reamer options for the LBC. Mostly just neck differences as you mentioned.

  15. #55
    Bwild97
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    I can not find a 6.5 Grendel barrel or upper for sale any where!!! But i did find this. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...el-production/

  16. #56
    Can't find one anywhere? Really? And you could only find an 8 month old article? Pre-Saami? And no others?

    This is either a mean-spirited, short-sighted, and wrong-minded post away from goodness, or from someone who is ... well,
    not very rescourceful, to put it very, very kindly.
    Last edited by jawbone; 02-18-2012 at 06:37 AM.

  17. #57
    Moderator bwaites's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwild97 View Post
    I can not find a 6.5 Grendel barrel or upper for sale any where!!! But i did find this. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...el-production/
    Im pretty sure Alexander Arms has uppers for sale. I know that people have said that barrels/bolts are a big backlogged, but I'm pretty sure uppers are available.

    AA has been in the process of updating and reprofiling barrels, and that has taken longer than planned I think.
    ”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt

  18. #58
    Bwild97
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    Yes, AA has them on its web site, But there is a 6 week wait, at least. I did call them today.

    My apologies for the "Not very resourceful" post, after 4 hrs of searching Google to find an upper or the parts to build an upper, that would ship with in the week. At first I thought I would just wait, but I have money in my pocket, and it's burning a hole! That article has me worried; Why are the barrel manufacturers, that were producing Grendel barrels now refusing to continue production? I don't want a variant of the Grendel chamber. I'm some what of a purist when it comes these sort of matters. I do find the situation surrounding this cartridge very disturbing. If some one could please, post a link to a source, that has a 6.5 Grendel, 24"-26" bull barrel and bolt or a complete upper w/ this barrel for less than $1,100. That will ship with in a week, please help me out!!

  19. #59
    leopard6.5
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    Bwild97: Here's a link to someone that says they have 2 in stock:

    http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/in...roducts_id=671

    Here's another to check: http://jtdistributing.net/store/product495.html

    I would also check gunbroker.com and ar15.com and search using the word grendel.

    Good Luck.

    Lee

  20. #60
    LRRPF52
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    Call Templar as well. They regularly sell Grendels.

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