If that's the case, which do you consider more important for precision shooting using brass-cased ammo in a 6.5 AR-15: the quality of the barrel, or the chamber designation / dimensions?Originally Posted by bwaites
If that's the case, which do you consider more important for precision shooting using brass-cased ammo in a 6.5 AR-15: the quality of the barrel, or the chamber designation / dimensions?
Drifter
Actually a two edged question. Precision shooting is best performed with fire formed brass, not new brass. No high level precision shooters use new brass or factory loads to my knowledge.
While factory Amax loads are amazingly accurate, hand loads cut the group size significantly.
The chamber issue really is MOST important to those who will primarily use factory ammo, since reloaders can tailor their loads to their chamber/barrel.
To answer your question....most important is a quality barrel, because if you don't start there, the chamber doesn't matter much! But a quality barrel can be severely handicapped by a chamber that isn't cut to spec.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
That's what I was getting at.
I'm a fan of the Grendel chamber. It works, and works well, and I don't hesitate to recommend it.
But if the choice is between an LW barrel chambered for 6.5 CSS or an ER Shaw barrel chambered for 6.5 Grendel, I would lean towards the LW barrel. And if the LW barrel can be had months sooner than the ERS, that would make the decision even easier.
The issues associated with Hornady's initial run of brass seem to be of little relevance now. Also, I realize that there is a potential for issues with variant chambers when using steel-cased ammo, but for shooters considering a 6.5 purchase for the role of a precision rifle (to include hunting), not sure that cheap blasting ammo factors into the equation.
Previously on this thread, this gentlemen put into words what I think happens more often than realized:
The shooting community seems relatively tolerant of other non-SAAMI chambers, such as .223 Wylde and 6.8 SPC II, but not so much when it comes to the Grendel.
I agree that newcomers should understand the differences between chambers, but not sure that this community benefits when it looks down its collective nose at the variants.
Drifter
My only issue with the variants is that people are not told that the variants may or may not tolerate some factory ammo. If you buy a .223 Wylde, you are obviously buying a chamber that is not exactly a .223 chamber. The 6.8 SPC II will shoot factory 6.8 ammo just fine.
The issue is that the people selling the variant Grendel chambers often say things like, "it's what the Grendel chamber should be, it will work with all the Grendel ammo", or "Bill Alexander used to make this chamber, then he changed it, it will work with all the Grendel ammo", when people have no way of actually testing or proving that. (Those are both quotes directly from two different barrel makers I called.)
Where is the ammo labeled 6.5 CSS, or 6.5 SAOD, or 6.5 Sporter? Where are the magazines with those labels? People want to have their cake and eat it too, but it isn't necessarily possible.
In the past, the 6.5 Grendel label assured buyers that what they were getting met a quality standard. We didn't hear people complaining that Grendel ammo wouldn't fit Grendel chambers, regardless of who sold the licensed chamber, whether it was Les Baer, or Sabre, or whoever, Grendel ammo worked. It didn't work in some of those variant chambers. While the Hornady issue is probably a thing of the past, as you point out, what happens when someone else brings their ammo out and it doesn't work in chambers that aren't Grendel? Will we once again see the Grendel name smeared, along with accusations that Bill Alexander was the culprit?
I find it hard to believe that people aren't buying the Grendel because of these reasons. Heck, every Grendel builder is MONTHS behind, someone is buying that stuff! Finding Grendel barrels and bolts is becoming a bit of a joke. Its back to 3 years ago.
As you point out, some might prefer to get a variant barrel over a SAAMI barrel if the barrel is of higher quality, particularly if they are going to handload their own ammo, but they still should be aware of the issues with variant chambers, and the possibility of dysfunction.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
The quote above seems appropriate.
I guess I just don't understand why discussion of variants on this forum seems to be tolerated only in the sense of their supposed inferiorities. Emotions seem to run deep.
Perhaps a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding chambers would result in more beneficial discussion. Or maybe a sticky thread of information so that the same drama isn't interjected into so many threads, and someone could simply share a link to that info instead of derailing topics. The result might be more newcomers to the cartridge. More 6.5 shooters would result in more manufacturers and new product introductions, which would benefit us all.
Drifter
Actually, from my view, some variants might actually be superior, if the context is very specific.
For instance, I would not chamber a bolt gun with the SAAMI chamber. It was specifically designed to allow the AR to function with as many different bullets as possible, and allow all of them to meet a hunting criteria for accuracy, which is generally accepted to be 2-3 MOA at 100 yards. The fact that some loads will shoot much better than that is a bonus. (The military requirement is 4 MOA if I remember correctly.)
From a bolt gun, I would demand much higher standards, and would chamber it with a .295, or perhaps even a tighter neck.
Les Baer designed his chamber to be very accurate with ONE load, the 123 AMAX and Hornady brass. It might be superior to the SAAMI chamber with that load, though I would love to put 2 rifles side by side and test them!
The big drama exists because so many of the variant makers insist that "its just like a Grendel" or "it will take all the Grendel ammunition", though they don't actually do any testing to be sure that is true, and they don't submit barrels to ammunition manufacturers either!
I've shot a few of those, including a 6.5 Sporter that had a hard time hitting 8 inch steel at 200 yards. I've also shot a Les Baer that was a laser, and had a very good LW barrel that I finally shot out after 6000 plus rounds. (Although it was a Grendel chamber, not 6.5 CSS or SAOD).
You are right about there being too much antipathy about the other chambers, and I know I've been pretty strident in my argument that buying a SAAMI chamber will solve a lot of the issues and complaints that people have. I'll try to be more open minded about it.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
Jeff Cooper
IMO the "deep emotions" come from pent up frustration at having to explain this dead, decayed, and now a pile of dust horse that has been beaten for years now. You only know a fraction of the BS drama that was perpetrated primarily behind the scenes through surreptitious Emails and PMs aimed at newbies to the cartridge. Then add in the BS stories marketed over the phone from the disenchanted parties wanting a slice of the "Grendel" pie without sticking to the actual specs, nor willing to adhere to licensing agreements to insure they would stick to the specs....
As one of those people who was an original board member from back in '04 when John started the first board, I talked to Arney, I talked to Bill A., I tolerated the whole LW back door marketing thing, I was forced to endure the whole insipid "Ole Joe" nonsense on the old board, etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.!!!!!!!
I'm going to say this because the others are far too nice to say it------ If any of us older codgers seem cranky, it's because we are SICK TO TEARS of explaining the whole mess over and over again ad infinitum while also being expected to keep it civil lest we start the whole mess of arguments all over again.
You new guys aren't to blame, since you don't know any better, but there is a very long back story (years worth!) that we will likely all puke over if we have to hash this crap even one more time.......
If Bill W. doesn't seem cheery enough talking wannabe chambers to new folk, then you ought to give him a medal anyway, because you just have no idea how much crap he has endured, deflected, and been left to shovel in the interest of peacefully moderating the Grendel community!!!
Last edited by Variable; 05-17-2012 at 02:36 AM.
Thanks for the reply bwaites. Fair enough.
Variable- I'm not as new as you might think. I visited the old forum periodically, but couldn't stomach the drama, and chose a 6-point-somethingelse cartridge instead at the time. I've obviously come to now recognize the attributes of the Grendel, which happened in the absence of a Grendel forum. In other words, it was other forums that discussed the pertinent information, without the behind-the-scenes drama, that lured me in. When this new Grendel forum arrived, I joined up. The reloading info with new powders shared recently has been great, but the old drama on other threads still seems to rear its head.IMO the "deep emotions" come from pent up frustration at having to explain this dead, decayed, and now a pile of dust horse that has been beaten for years now. You only know a fraction of the BS drama that was perpetrated primarily behind the scenes through surreptitious Emails and PMs aimed at newbies to the cartridge. Then add in the BS stories marketed over the phone from the disenchanted parties wanting a slice of the "Grendel" pie without sticking to the actual specs, nor willing to adhere to licensing agreements to insure they would stick to the specs....
As one of those people who was an original board member from back in '04 when John started the first board, I talked to Arney, I talked to Bill A., I tolerated the whole LW back door marketing thing, I was forced to endure the whole insipid "Ole Joe" nonsense on the old board, etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.!!!!!!!
I'm going to say this because the others are far too nice to say it------ If any of us older codgers seem cranky, it's because we are SICK TO TEARS of explaining the whole mess over and over again ad infinitum while also being expected to keep it civil lest we start the whole mess of arguments all over again.
You new guys aren't to blame, since you don't know any better, but there is a very long back story (years worth!) that we will likely all puke over if we have to hash this crap even one more time.......
If Bill W. doesn't seem cheery enough talking wannabe chambers to new folk, then you ought to give him a medal anyway, because you just have no idea how much crap he has endured, deflected, and been left to shovel in the interest of peacefully moderating the Grendel community!!!
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As an attempt at an analogy, let's suppose Bubba wants new tires for his pickup truck. He decides to visit Grumpy's Pickup Truck Tire Center, figuring that it should be the place with the most knowledge to outfit him with the right set of tires. He enters the store, asking what tires will be best for his application. What he didn't expect was the "discussion" that followed, which included employees, customers, and other guests who occasionally stop by for coffee. Several people are talking at the same time, with some saying get this brand or that brand, this model or that model, etc. One guy speaks out about which design copied another, and how it wouldn't be right to buy the copycat brand. Another points out that one model is probably okay, but that there was an instance with valve stems not fitting right when the tire was first introduced several years ago (but since resolved). Another person points out that only one model will accept the new steel-cased snow chains expected to be released soon. (Nevermind that this takes place in Florida.) Not all the models have been tested on all roads, so Bubba is led to believe that some choices could be very risky.
While the above scenario is taking place, no one seems to notice that Bubba quietly walked out the door and drove away. Bubba will likely do one of three things: (1) shop for tires somewhere else with less drama, (2) trade in his truck for another so that he doesn't have to bother with a tire purchase, or (3) return to Grumpy's to try again at deciphering the information and wading through the drama. In the case of #3, he eventually catches on, starts hanging out at Grumpy's, and even joins in the drama repeating the same things he heard in the beginning to every new customer that walks in asking for advice.
Meanwhile, Grumpy's tire sales have grown, so he fails to recognize the missed opportunities. His strategy is to maintain status quo, but wonders why some in the community speak negatively about his shop.
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Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but maybe you understand my point.
Last edited by Drifter; 05-17-2012 at 03:29 AM.
Drifter
Drifter. That is an interesting analogy, and quite clever. I lean to the better-informed customer makes a better decision, if he/she knows how to evaluate and prioritize that information.
The customer that knows how to seat his tires so that valve stems are aligned properly might not care which tire type they get, while the one who switches back and forth between seasonal tires knows they need tires that will work with their particular wheels.
The one who isn't that discriminating just says, "Gimme sum tars, sun." And hopefully things work out for him.
I agree. Anyone who shows up here is looking for Grendel-related information. Just not sure that they expect, deserve, or want the drama, and what effect that drama has in the grand scheme. I'm thinking people are seeking technical and performance-related info, rather than who got their feelings hurt along the way. But then again, maybe I'm in the minority...
Drifter
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