Calling the Shot

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    Calling the Shot

    Recently I talked with a experienced big game hunter about an incident where he missed a elk at pretty close range. He wanted my opinion so after a few minutes of listening and asking some questions I figured his rifle and optic were functioning fine and he had a zero. There was nothing wrong with his equipment. He had to move quickly through deep snow to a FFP and take the shot kneeling so he was breathing relatively hard.

    I asked him what his call was. He didn't know what I was talking about. So I asked him where his cross hair was in relation to the animal when he fired his shot. He said it was center in the kill zone -- a very common response from people who have never heard of the term 'calling the shot'. I asked him the same question a couple of times using different words and every time the answer was the same -- center of the kill zone when the shot was fired.

    Finally I said that since his zero was good and he says his cross hair was in the center of the kill zone when the shot was fired -- he should have killed the animal immediately. The guy looked a bit surprised when I said this which is the look I normally get from guys who have shot all their lives and have never learned or practiced shot calls.

    I view calling shots to start out as a physical action but it quickly ends up a mental skill as it deals with trust that you did see the right thing and decision making.

    Starting out as a physical skill --

    How would you guys train someone to call their shots and how would you quantify success in training someone to call their shots?

    How many shooters out there actually call their shots and make decisions based on their calls even if they see no splash / impact?

    LR1955

  • #2
    My coaches have trained me to "call the shot." They did this by laying next to me and looking through their spotting scope. They asked me to tell them what the conditions looked like to me and when I squeezed off the shot where my crosshairs were. When I started I was abysmal at calling my shots. But, with practice and patience from my mentors I am getting better. I mentally call all my shots and then adjust as needed based on that.
    I am in no way saying I can coach anyone, only how I was taught.

    Comment

    • bwaites
      Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 4445

      #3
      For something so simple sounding, it has been the most difficult thing I have learned as a long range shooter. When I practice dry firing, it is about the only thing I focus on besides trigger break.

      I'm still not as good at it as I want to be, and consider it the most valuable skill that I need to work on more effectively.

      I think of it as taking a snapshot of the last sight picture I have before the primer ignites, and that helps, but I know I need to work on it more.

      Comment


      • #4
        One of the best ways I have found to teach the "Call" is to get an accurate 22 and start shooting from prone or bench rest. Shoot from approx. 50 yards at a bullseye target with a 1" grid in the background and a medium power scope. After the shooter fires tell them not to look back at the target until they stop and think about where the cross hairs were when the trigger broke. This can be done with a coach or without. The shooter (and coach) can then look through the scope or spotting scope and check. With a little time and cheap ammo you get better over a short time. The shooter needs to pay attention to the fundamentals but concentrate on the last moment at the time of the trigger break. Being honest to yourself is very important. Once you start to get the hang of calling the shot with the 22 move up to your Grendel and have at it. Adding stress or unusual/hunting positions while calling shots can give you the info and confidence you need to make the shot on that trophy elk.

        Comment

        • LR1955
          Super Moderator
          • Mar 2011
          • 3355

          #5
          Originally posted by rkflorey View Post
          One of the best ways I have found to teach the "Call" is to get an accurate 22 and start shooting from prone or bench rest. Shoot from approx. 50 yards at a bullseye target with a 1" grid in the background and a medium power scope. After the shooter fires tell them not to look back at the target until they stop and think about where the cross hairs were when the trigger broke. This can be done with a coach or without. The shooter (and coach) can then look through the scope or spotting scope and check. With a little time and cheap ammo you get better over a short time. The shooter needs to pay attention to the fundamentals but concentrate on the last moment at the time of the trigger break. Being honest to yourself is very important. Once you start to get the hang of calling the shot with the 22 move up to your Grendel and have at it. Adding stress or unusual/hunting positions while calling shots can give you the info and confidence you need to make the shot on that trophy elk.
          RK:

          Learn something new every day. I never thought about using a grid to train the technique and it really is very deliberate and very good. I say this because by using a grid the feedback is precise and quantifies ability. Because it is measurable, a guy can define a goal for himself and shooters tend to be very motivated when they go after process and outcome goals.

          What would you consider a good standard for shot calls given such a training technique? Known as a 'call area'. Lets just assume sub minute mechanical capability of the rifle / sights / ammo.

          LR55

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3355

            #6
            Originally posted by RStewart View Post
            My coaches have trained me to "call the shot." They did this by laying next to me and looking through their spotting scope. They asked me to tell them what the conditions looked like to me and when I squeezed off the shot where my crosshairs were. When I started I was abysmal at calling my shots. But, with practice and patience from my mentors I am getting better. I mentally call all my shots and then adjust as needed based on that.
            I am in no way saying I can coach anyone, only how I was taught.
            RS:

            You are lucky. You had guys who would coach you on this very important marksmanship skill / technique.

            How did they coach you?

            LR55

            Comment

            • LR1955
              Super Moderator
              • Mar 2011
              • 3355

              #7
              Originally posted by bwaites View Post
              I'm still not as good at it as I want to be, and consider it the most valuable skill that I need to work on more effectively.
              Bill:

              You know what is coming next. He, he, he.

              Define an outcome goal.

              LR55

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                RS:

                You are lucky. You had guys who would coach you on this very important marksmanship skill / technique.

                How did they coach you?

                LR55
                Coming late to the competitive game, the first thing they had to do was break me of my old habits.
                1-The first was teaching me to "stay with the rifle." Having been a hunter my whole life, I was quick off the rifle when I shot to see how I did. By staying with the rifle, they were teaching me to follow through on each shot.
                2- The next thing was body position. The amount of cheek pressure in particular on the stock would change the POA of the the rifle.
                3- Breathing. I never knew how much just the act of breathing would make a rifle move. At a 100 yard target, it was not that big of a deal, but when you're trying to hit a 3" X ring at 600 yards, it shows up markedly.

                After getting through these basics we moved on to "calling the shot." We started with me laying next to my coach when he was shooting. He would talk out loud about the conditions he was seeing and adjustments he was making. Just after he fired, he would call the shot. The target would go down and almost always come up with the round in the area he had called it. He would shoot a string of 2 spotters and 20 rounds like this. Then we would reverse positions with me on my rifle and him next to me. I would tell him what I was seeing (mirage, flags, etc.) and would take the shot. I called the shot and when I started I was right about 5% of the time. We would talk about this and I began to understand that "calling the shot" was a part of the bigger process of making the right decisions prior to pulling the trigger. I learned to concentrate on exactly where the last place my crosshairs were when I pulled the trigger and to tune out the surrounding world. As they say, the bullet always goes where you aim. I also went to double hearing protection to eliminate the possibility of a "sympathy shot."
                One of my coaches is a High Master prone shooter and the other is a High Master F-Open. I spend as much time practicing with them as I can. When we practice, we shoot an actaul 60 shot match at 600 yards. Per their advice, when I can't shoot with them, I also try to get trigger time in every weekend shooting at least 50 rounds. My target of choice has 20 1 moa circles on it. Placed at 100 yards it makes you make minute adjustments on each shot, not just hammering away at the same hole.
                I have gotten better at calling my shots, but still have a journey ahead of me. But for me, it's all about the journey.

                Comment


                • #9
                  We were always told we are creating a firing machine, everything done the same way, every time regardless of conditions or stress.

                  Now that I am older and not in great shape it is more difficult to attain but many things are even more clear now due to it being harder to achieve the same performance level.

                  Cheek weld and pressure, consistent and with enough pressure to feel your facial muscles compress on the stock, same way every time. (also the reason foam pad was added for cheek riser, hey sometimes it was very cold)

                  Consistent trigger pull, if you practice until you actually get tired of squeezing the trigger you can then see how much you would be tempted to change, this is to be avoided.

                  Follow through, even in hunting I spot my round hit and track with the cross hairs either establishing lead or POA if it is barely moving.

                  Gene and others probably remember firing so much that you nearly did not want to shoot more, we were made to do this so that fatigue would be dealt with and the problems would become apparent, in theory it is easy, in practice not so much.

                  That millisecond it takes for the rifle to fire your brain should have retained the sight picture and the POA, it will help when you need to determine the POI if you did not have a spotter or if a follow up is needed, plus it helps in training you to "call the shot" you should know where the bullet went, you fired it.

                  I have to dust off my skills in not just shooting but teaching others to shoot at 600 soon, I will be running the precision course at an event we are having on June 4th to benefit the DAV and Wounded Warrior.

                  If anyone is interested I will post the details soon and the website, all proceeds will go to helping our wounded warriors who wish to return to the line for competition and the remainder to be used as those organizations see fit.

                  The name of the event is M1 for Vets.

                  Sorry I have not been able to contribute as much lately, school is a real chore.

                  Lately I have been firing quite a bit of subsonic 22lr, on a scoped Savage model 93 with a nice trigger and bbl, it is truly a good training tool and very cost effective. I am glad you guys pointed that out, some think the only good training is firing high power rounds, the subsonic tend to make your skills quite apparent on a shorter range.
                  Last edited by Guest; 04-17-2011, 03:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                    Bill:

                    You know what is coming next. He, he, he.

                    Define an outcome goal.

                    LR55
                    To me this would be the ability to consistently call the POI due to having retained POA in the mind at the time the trigger broke.
                    This is a skill we could all practice for the rest of our lives and probably the most important along with range determination and wind doping.
                    Last edited by Guest; 04-17-2011, 05:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      IMHO you are spot on Warped. The basics dictate everything. But the good observation skills (shot calls, condition changes, etc.) are the skills that confirm our training is helping and not just throwing lead at a target. Having equipment that is accurate to start (My new Savage Mark II TR) makes me try (and I stress try) to live up to the capabilities of the rifle. If I"m not honest with myself about what caused that errant round on that perfect 9 shot group with a flyer I will never be able to fix the problem.
                      As always a shooting buddy who is willing to watch your shot and break your balls when you jerk a trigger makes honesty easy.
                      100 rounds of Match Target 22 cost me about $10.00. 100 rounds of Hornady 123 gr cost me $100.00. The math is easy and then shooting my 22 " Css barreled Grendel and ringing the 6" gong at 500 yards makes all that practice worth it.

                      Comment

                      • bwaites
                        Moderator
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 4445

                        #12
                        Originally posted by LR1955 View Post
                        Bill:

                        You know what is coming next. He, he, he.

                        Define an outcome goal.

                        LR55
                        I'm working on it. I really like the idea of using the grid.

                        I also like the idea of using 1 inch dots on a target at 100 yards.

                        I am also going to start using 1/2" dots at 30 yards with an air gun, since that is way cheap, and I can do it in the back yard!

                        Outcome goal is to be able to consistently call my shots instantly, retaining the sight picture after the shot is fired. I've found this significantly harder with the 7mm than the .223 and Grendel, so I really need to work hard at it.

                        Comment

                        • LR1955
                          Super Moderator
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 3355

                          #13
                          Originally posted by bwaites View Post
                          I'm working on it. I really like the idea of using the grid.

                          I also like the idea of using 1 inch dots on a target at 100 yards.

                          I am also going to start using 1/2" dots at 30 yards with an air gun, since that is way cheap, and I can do it in the back yard!

                          Outcome goal is to be able to consistently call my shots instantly, retaining the sight picture after the shot is fired. I've found this significantly harder with the 7mm than the .223 and Grendel, so I really need to work hard at it.
                          Bill:

                          You will never be able to call perfectly but you can develop a pretty small 'call area'. It will be small enough to give you good enough feedback for your purposes and the accuracy potential of your rifle and ammo.

                          Take a look at http://topachievement.com/smart.html for the SMART goals outline. Note the terms 'Attainable' and 'Realistic'. The grid system will allow you to 'Measure' and give you the feedback that allows you to make your goal or goals more 'Specific'.

                          When guys write out goals, initially their outcome goal will probably be either too stringent or way too lenient. As a guy starts executing the process he has devised to attain that goal, the goal becomes more specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and the guy figures out how much time is really needed to attain that goal. Also, their processes change.

                          So, goals are pretty dynamic and do change as guys get better at a task. This is important to note as many guys refuse to change their goal or goals even when they know that the goal isn't quite right anymore. So, as you go through this, understand that if you need to change your goal or process, change it.

                          Calling shots is normally part of a process guys use to attain some other shooting goal they have. So, it doesn't need to be a specific, stand alone goal. However, if it seems important enough then it just may be a stand alone goal. I don't think you will need to spend a lot of time at it before calls become part of a process used to attain another marksmanship goal.

                          LR55

                          Comment

                          • LR1955
                            Super Moderator
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 3355

                            #14
                            Originally posted by warped View Post
                            That millisecond it takes for the rifle to fire your brain should have retained the sight picture and the POA, it will help when you need to determine the POI if you did not have a spotter or if a follow up is needed, plus it helps in training you to "call the shot" you should know where the bullet went, you fired it.
                            Randy:

                            IMHO -- an excellent explanation plus the added benefit of a reason why calling shots is so important. BTW -- I emphasize that the shooter calls his shots to his spotter as that is the only way his spotter knows if the shooter broke a good shot or not -- and in which direction it went if the shot wasn't so good.

                            To carry on this topic for those who don't shoot with observers, in doctrine the observer gives the shooter an elevation or hold and a wind call which is normally a hold. If he sees bullet trace and it doesn't go where it should, the observer will question himself in terms of his ability to give a good wind call and or if the shooter milled the distance wrong. If the shooter calls a good shot and the bullet didn't go there, the observer knows there was a mistake in range estimation and or a wind call. Providing of course the shooter took the right hold or indexed the right elevation. The feedback via a call by the shooter allows the observer the ability to determine if it was just a bad shot or something else. Same when guys shoot team matches where a coach gives them winds. The coach needs to know the call or he can't determine if his wind calls were good or not.

                            LR1955

                            Comment

                            • BlueOvalBruin

                              #15
                              I think the best way to teach someone shot calling is to place targets far enough out that they can’t see the holes. People will cheat if you let them, darn ego getting in the way again.

                              Then it’s best to start with a gun that shoots relatively flat, so the front sight stays put for just a tad longer to make it easier for people to see. With pistols, I think it helps to run a lighter recoil spring and mainspring and use 9 or .40 minor loads.

                              Then, run the drills late in the afternoon just before sunset so the shooter can see the muzzle flash. The muzzle flash works great because it makes a very nice silhouette of the sight picture right after ignition and is hard to not notice.

                              Give the shooter another target to write on where they thought the shot went based on that silhouette image. Then compare.

                              I think one of the harder things to teach is sight tracking (especially at speed), because it requires so much conditioning and is a skill that takes months if not years to develop. It took me a year to be able to improve my sight tracking ability from .25s splits and transitions to .20s (w/ a pistol).

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