Endurance

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    #16
    Bob's day in the sun!

    LR1955
    Last edited by LR1955; 08-05-2012, 02:17 PM.

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    • #17
      Congrats!

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      • #18
        Glad to hear that your efforts have reached pay-off status...congrats!

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        • #19
          I would be glad to help any competitors by conveying what I have learned, that is one of the wonderful things about the competitive shooting community, I've had competitors who were in contention with me volunteer helpful information. Many have helped me so I'm more than happy to help any one in return.

          Let's start with the rifle, I built mine, myself but that is not necessary. The matches I am shooting require that the external dimensions match the A2 or A4 service rifles if it is an AR. I won't bother with others like the M1 Garand or M1A they can't compete along side an AR any longer.

          The critical elements are the sights, barrel, sling, free float tube and trigger. The receiver choice is not an issue, upper or lower. But the critical component are well, critical.

          Sights
          The CMP service rifle rules require an A2 rear sight and nobody builds sights that will track truer than John Holliger's pinned A2 rear sight. I use an A4 upper with a windage adjustable "F" height front sight tower. It isn't absolutely required but if you use a pinned front sight tower you run the risk of your no wind zero, not corresponding to the mechanical zero by a lot. The end result can be insufficient windage adjustment at the 600 yard prone stage, and I'm not willing to accept sloppy alignment like you get with the Bushmaster, and Knights DCM uppers, it isn't necessary. Both White Oak and CLE make windage adjustable front sight towers that will allow mechanical zero to equal no wind zero within 1/4 MOA if you have the patience to adjust them. Practically speaking +- 1 MOA is acceptable.
          The front post I use is the .072" National match configuration which tapers away born you .002" in both the vertical and horizontal plane. This provides a crisp and clear front post wide enough that any eyes can focus on it properly.
          In addition to the width it is also critical that the sight have zero reflection and the only way to achieve this is with a carbide smoker, spray sight black buds up and changes your zero and rusts your sights. What you want is a Ray-Vin super smoker and a supply of carbide. Use a toothbrush to on the front sight and smoke it after any excess has been removed.

          Barrel,
          There are many good ones available, button rifled barrels cost less than cut rifle barrels because the manufacturing costs less. They are both capable of better than required accuracy but the cut rifle barrels are a better value. Wilson and Douglass are the most popular service rifle barrels and they cost $210-$290. Krieger, Satern and others are cut rifled and cost $400-$450 but last twice as long. A typical season of high power rifle shooting is 3,000 rounds, that means one cut rifle barrel or two button rifle barrels.
          I prefer Krieger barrels in 1:7.7" twist with a wylde chamber. It is critical that the barrel be turned, profiled concentric to the bore. There are only two people I would trust to do this, Frank White of Compass Lake Engineering, or John Holliger of White Oak Armament. Frank will try to talk you into his chamber, the CLE chamber but he has reamers for the wylde as well and will chamber to it if requested, John uses the wylde primarily. The reason I suggest the wylde over smaller chambers is that if you are a serious competitor you will eventually find yourself on a National Trophy Infantry Team match. Six shooters engage eight humanoid targets with 384 rounds beginning at 600 yards prone with targets visible for 50 seconds to fire as many shots at your can according to the coaches load plan. Then you move in line with the other thirty or so teams to 550 yards where you hold up for the command to advance, then you run to the 500 yard line, drop into the prone position and load and make ready, usually with 30 round magazines and one inch shorter sling positions to keep your position higher and tighter. As the targets appear you fire as many rounds as possible according to the coaches load plan to insure hits covering any targets with a shooter malfunction on command, for all yardages a square equals six hits per target time the number of targets squared. At this point everyone is shooting their own ammunition but this is where the chamber becomes critical.
          Soon after the targets go down the command advance is issued and this time you are moving 200 yard to the 300 yard line and using the F target, a humanoid nipples to top of head. At 350 yard you are held until all teams are ready to advance at which time the command "advance" is given and you run to the 300 yard line and drop to the sitting position and load a magazine loaded by your coax or captain with any saved rounds from team members. A wylde chamber will swallow any round, a CLE chamber will choke on a wylde optimized round. I found myself in this situation yesterday for the NTIT match and had to accept rounds optimized with a CLE chamber. I fired 12 rounds and got 12 hits from 300 yards sitting in 50 seconds which is more than ample time. One of our team members had a stoppage and had to advance to 200 yards with six rounds which is fired rapid fire standing. A wylde chamber would have prevented firing any rounds at 200 yards. The points are 4 at 600, 3 at 500, 2 at 300 and one at 200. CLE and AMU chambers are great but only if all team members are shooting them . Wylde chambers are great and will accept any rounds and still deliver .5 MOA at 600 yards.

          Sling
          I use a Les Tam leather sling which is custom built by Les in Hawaii. A Ron Brown is nearly as good and is available from Creedmoor Sports without the year or better wait of Les' slings. I have two Les slings and will order another this year, Les is old and no telling when they will be no longer available. Don't mess around with a Turner or similar, it your tempted for cost reasons just go with a cotton web sling it is better than the inferior leather slings. And it is the most critical of issues that your position be consistent, repeatable to the least fraction of an inch, so that muscles are relaxed and tension is born by the sling. Any muscle tension will translate to lost points, which you cannot afford.

          Free Float Tube,
          I use White Oak Armament tubes they work well but have a little more complicated attachment system than some. CLE tubes and others are less complex and more easily disassembled but have a weaker sling attachment and have been known to break the welds under tension. For this reason I have stayed with White Oak tubes, I have two of the White Oak and one of the CLE tubes, RRA, Bushmaster, Knight and others have free float tubes but I consider them inferior. Hand guards should be fiber reinforced for rigidity, stay away from the OD green and Dark Earth ones they are flimsy plastic and will flex.

          Trigger,
          This one is easy, choose a Geissele High Speed NM, don't even think about any others, the CLE, RRA, Milazo, Jewel, JP, McCormick, Extreme and similar are far, far inferior.
          I watch as the triggers are weighed at the national matches every year, 1,200 triggers, Geissele 99%+ make the 4.5 minimum weight criteria all others 50%. The others wear and wear and are not repeatable, this is absolutely not acceptable.

          I'm at the Cleveland airport ready to head back to Florida. When I find time I'll add things like Cart, Coat, under garments, Mat, Glove, Hat, Spotting Scope, Stand, Loads, and so forth.

          Bob

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          • #20
            Hi Paul, are you any relation to Dan Peloquin from Chippewa Falls Wisconsin, Cray Research Super Computers?
            Bob

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            • #21
              I'm in Nashville now waiting on a plane to Tampa Bay, lets see, Next to the rifle and sling I think the next most important item is spotting scope and stand, that is what tells you the wind condition and more.

              I use a Kowa 773 spotting scope with a 25X long eye relief eye piece and a Creedmoor Pole Cat stand. A tripod does not cut it. The scope must be positioned so that you can see it through your left eye (for a right hand shooter) while the rifle is in position. If not you will miss wind changes and shoot 9's or even worse 8's in the time between reading the wind and breaking the shot. It isn't necessary to spend the money on a scope that I did, even a Konus 80 mm will do the job but the stand absolutely must be capable of positioning the eye pice in the proper location so that you can check wind through the mirage while in position. It must be easily adjustable for standing, sitting, and prone positions.

              Less critical is the sitting position since it is only 200 yards, but I check my first two shots to make sure my wind call is good during my mag change and if necessary make a sight change before gaining my NPA for the next 8 rounds. You have a full 60 seconds to get off 10 rounds starting in the standing position and when the targets come up drop in to position gain your NPA(natural point of aim) and fire the ten rounds. I usually spend the first 28-30 seconds n the first two rounds and then reload, check my shots, and begin the next 8 rounds around 35-38 seconds, taking a breath between each shot or every other shot depending upon conditions. I fully expect to clean this stage if not something is wrong.
              For the rapid prone you have more time 70 seconds from standing, I drop into position rack the charge handle, gain the NPA fire two shots and check the mirage for change, if none continue if a change change sight settings and continue with the next 8 shots. It is critical that you get the wind call correct on this stage again a clean is expected but a 99 or even a 98 will do.

              For the slow prone at 600 yards your scope will get a work out. I use it to make a wind call and correlate to wind flags if possible. I watch the mirage as long as I can before called to the line and use a stop watch to time the take ups and let offs so that I can better predict how long I have until conditions change. I choose a prevalent condition and when the targets come up I wait for that condition to change and observe any fellow competitors shot placements until my condition returns then I shoot as fast as I can until the condition is close to changing. Depending upon the prevailing condition I may get off 4-10 shots and then I wait for that condition to return, watching my stop watch to make sure I won't runout of time. You have 20 minutes for 20 shots and if conditions are favorable and I have good pit service I expect to finish in 8-10 minutes which means I had to endure fewer wind changes. If conditions are changing rapidly I may be force to return to my no wind zero and wait for a known condition. Or in a worst case make a new call.

              The difference between and excellent shooter using a scope to read conditions and the same shooter without a scope is typically about 20 points out of 200 possible. Just so we understand a 192-196 is usually required to get points in an EIC match. A 180 does not cut it. The scope and stand can make the difference between a marksman and high master. It is that critical.

              Bob
              Last edited by Guest; 08-05-2012, 03:56 AM.

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              • PA_Allen
                Warrior
                • Mar 2011
                • 333

                #22
                Bob,
                Congratulations on achieving this great goal. I can appreciate the skill and endurance that it took to reach this point. I often tell folks that I thought I was a good shot until I tried across the course with a service rifle.

                Best,
                PA

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                • #23
                  PA thanks, only a few will fully realize what it takes to get that distinguished medal, if you have shot across the course on full course ranges then you will have an idea of what I was up against, especially at my age of 58.
                  Bob

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                  • biodsl
                    Chieftain
                    • Aug 2011
                    • 1714

                    #24
                    Originally posted by stokesrj View Post
                    Hi Paul, are you any relation to Dan Peloquin from Chippewa Falls Wisconsin, Cray Research Super Computers?
                    Bob
                    Not to my knowledge. It would be nice to have that kind of intelligent lineage ; ) Not so many Peloquin's out here on the Left Coast, but you find more in WI and MN, as well as New England and Eastern Canada.
                    Paul Peloquin

                    Did government credibility die of Covid or with Covid?

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                    • #25
                      Here is a little bit of information on loads that work well for service rifle across the coarse competition. Look no further than the Sierra 77 grain SMK for 200 and 300 yard stages and 80 grain SMK for 600 yard loads. It is important that the powder used for short line loads also works without bad chemistry when followed by powder used in the long line load. The simplest way to achieve this is to shoot the same powder. Varget, and Reloader 15 are the most common and successful powders in this application.
                      It is counter intuitive but the 80 SMK can handle a heavier powder charge when loaded longer than mag length for single loading than the 77 SMK when loaded to mag length.

                      The Wylde chamber is the most popular chamber in use in .223 for service rifles. If loading for the Wylde Chamber, it is normal that the shoulder of fired cases are .005-.008 inches longer than SAMMI specifications. Cases will last longer if the shoulder is pushed back no more than .003" but then that case can only be fired in a wylde chamber. If that round is chambered in a CLE or other tight dimensioned chamber it will result in a case stuck in the chamber and may not fully close the bolt resulting in a rifle that can neither be fired not the round extracted. This isn't good and should be avoided. One way to do so is to resize cases fired in a Wylde chamber to SAAMI specifications. This will result in fewer loads per case but the risk is not worth taking to achieve a few more loadings per case.

                      So, assuming a wylde chamber, 24 grains of R15 is a great starting place and is often the stopping place too. Generally loads can be increased up to around 24.5 grains of R!5 under the 80 SMK if it is loaded for a jump to the lands of around .015"

                      Varget can be loaded a little heavier with many using 24.5 grains for the 77 SMK at mag length and 25.0 grains behind the 80 SMK seated long. Keep in mind you must work up to these loads in your rifle and they will blow primers in a tight chamber.

                      Many records have been set with the R15 and Varget loads I listed but they don't meter all that well so I don't use them. Instead I load my short line loads with with 23.2 grains of IMR8208XBR and my long line loads with 24.5 grains of Varget. I throw the 8208 loads and assemble on my Dillon and weigh the Varget loads and assemble on my single stage Press. It really isn't necessary to weigh the loads, throwing them is good enough for 600 yards, weighing is really only critical at 1,000 yards but I go ahead with the extra effort just for the peace of mind. Varget follows 8208 very well as they are the same chemistry, I shot five matches this week at camp Perry and every time I laid down at 600 yards with my Varget loads I shot an X or ten on the first shot, no settling required.

                      Another great bullet pair is the 75 grain Hornady BTHP Match and 80 grain A-Max. I have shot identical scores with this combination as the Sierra and they are typically 20% or more cheaper. I'm shooting the Sierra's only because I lucked into a 50% off certificate from Sierra up to $2000 so they are cheaper for me to shoot this year. However the top shooters opt for the Sierra's at a very high rate.

                      There really isn't any reason to look at any other bullets for this game, shoot the Sierras if you can or fall back to the Hornadys if funds require. The scores will be shot by the shooter not the load, so put as much time as possible working on position, sight alignment, and trigger control, that will get you more points than any amount of load development.

                      Bob
                      Last edited by Guest; 08-06-2012, 02:17 AM.

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