New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

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  • hdrolling
    Bloodstained
    • Aug 2017
    • 88

    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    If you have DMs like you should, then the SAWs and DMs are the most casualty-producing duty positions when trained properly.


    As a retired 11c Mortar man, I would have to disagree with this statement
    Retired Army Airborne Infantry

    Comment

    • LRRPF52
      Super Moderator
      • Sep 2014
      • 8569

      Originally posted by hdrolling View Post
      [/COLOR][/B]
      As a retired 11c Mortar man, I would have to disagree with this statement
      Within the Infantry Platoon. If it's Company or Battalion level, then Scout Platoon Recon Teams and good FOs in the line Platoons with comms with indirect assets will be the most of course.

      Ask anyone here how I feel about mortars. I would exchange my collection of long range rifles for a mortar and a good supply of HE.

      It's all fun to shoot little bullets on target, but I much preferred calling in 81s.

      But again, with the Platoon, your belt-feds and DMs are going to be the main guys with high hit probability on target, whereas a lot of people outside of the profession get fixated on riflemen, not even knowing what weapons are MTO&E in an Infantry Platoon or Company.
      NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

      CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

      6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

      www.AR15buildbox.com

      Comment

      • Kswhitetails
        Chieftain
        • Oct 2016
        • 1914

        Ask yourself. The quoted post referenced the value and exception for mortars specifically in the previous sentences. I think it was skimmed? Not that I could blame anyone, this is page 13 of a good discussion.
        Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

        Comment

        • hdrolling
          Bloodstained
          • Aug 2017
          • 88

          Originally posted by Kswhitetails View Post
          Ask yourself. The quoted post referenced the value and exception for mortars specifically in the previous sentences. I think it was skimmed? Not that I could blame anyone, this is page 13 of a good discussion.
          Oh no, I read it all. Still had to find a spot for a shameless "high angle hell" plug somewhere, I understood what he was saying.
          Retired Army Airborne Infantry

          Comment

          • LRRPF52
            Super Moderator
            • Sep 2014
            • 8569

            A lot of our military discussion here have often ended up with the conclusion that we need a much lighter, Platoon and even Squad-level mortar system.

            These systems already exist, like iMortar.



            Combine it with PGM, and warhead size is not as important, especially in semi-permissive ROE.
            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

            www.AR15buildbox.com

            Comment

            • Kswhitetails
              Chieftain
              • Oct 2016
              • 1914

              Originally posted by hdrolling View Post
              Oh no, I read it all. Still had to find a spot for a shameless "high angle hell" plug somewhere, I understood what he was saying.
              Need a "like" button.

              Shameless, indeed.
              Nothing kills the incentive of men faster than a healthy sense of entitlement. Nothing kills entitlement faster than a healthy sense of achievement.

              Comment

              • BluntForceTrauma
                Administrator
                • Feb 2011
                • 3897

                Originally posted by hdrolling View Post
                As a retired 11c Mortar man, I would have to disagree with this statement
                Reminds me of a story Eugene Sledge told in his book With the Old Breed. On Peleliu, there was a group of Japanese massing for attack in a tightly enclosed rock ravine that no direct fires of any caliber could dislodge. Experienced mortarmen disregarded illogical order from inexperienced lieutenant and dropped a volley into the crevasse. Attack never came. Later found torn-up bodies of 40 to 50 japs. Problem solved.
                :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                Comment

                • stanc
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 3430

                  Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                  Gents,

                  There has been healthy debate throughout the development of small arms in history regarding appropriate calibers and weapon designs. This is a pretty hot topic in the Grendel community since the Grendel seems to offer external trajectory ballistics that are very similar to 7.62 NATO and some of the common .308 Match loads, but out of a much smaller rifle/carbine package with significantly less recoil, and increased ammunition carrying capacity.

                  That naturally has led some to propose that we could replace both the 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO cartridges for dismounted Infantry troops.

                  I personally do not see a need to replace 5.56 NATO as it has so many advantages that are beneficial to riflemen in an Infantry Squad, however...

                  I do see a huge need to replace the entire SAW/5.56 system and the M240/7.62 NATO system, since they hold squads and platoons back from being maneuverable. With the recent developments in efficient cartridge & bullet design, I think we're ready to start pushing in the direction of a new Multi-Role Light Machinegun concept with a cartridge that is smaller and lighter than 7.62 NATO, with better ballistic potential as far as trajectory is concerned.
                  It looks like the Army agrees. https://taskandpurpose.com/army-next...-squad-weapon/

                  P.S. Better take your blood pressure meds before reading.

                  Comment

                  • pinzgauer
                    Warrior
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 440

                    Originally posted by stanc View Post
                    It looks like the Army agrees. https://taskandpurpose.com/army-next...-squad-weapon/

                    P.S. Better take your blood pressure meds before reading.
                    So what's funny: MARSOC has said publicly that the M27 offers no advantages and multiple disadvantages to them. They'll keep their M4's and M249's:

                    Comment

                    • n9nwo
                      Bloodstained
                      • Dec 2016
                      • 93

                      Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                      A lot of our military discussion here have often ended up with the conclusion that we need a much lighter, Platoon and even Squad-level mortar system.

                      These systems already exist, like iMortar.



                      Combine it with PGM, and warhead size is not as important, especially in semi-permissive ROE.
                      Have we dropped the 81mm? I was under the impression that we now field only the 60mm and the 120mm

                      Comment

                      • stanc
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2011
                        • 3430

                        Originally posted by bj139
                        I don't think the 2nd Amendment covers mortars.
                        Not even 18th century mortars?

                        Comment

                        • stanc
                          Banned
                          • Apr 2011
                          • 3430

                          6.5 SOCOM = .260 REM





                          By David Crane david (at) defensereview (dot) com February 4, 2018 DefenseReview's (DR) been following the PCP Ammo polymer-cased lightweight rifle/machine gun ammo tech for awhile now, so we were really pleased to find out that while they cracked the heat code a long time ago, they finally cracked the cold code, so it's claimed that the ammo can now handle arctic conditions without cracking, in addition to being 30% lighter than standard rifle/machine gun ammo, a highly significant weight savings. Anyway, at SHOT Show 2018, DR got to handle the new PCP Ammo polymer-cased 6.5 SOCOM lightweight machine gun ammo, and it looks (and feels) really good. It's potentially a real game changer for military SOF (Special Operations Forces) missions, particulary when being run in a lightweight belt-fed machine gun like the FN MK 48 MOD 1. Defense Review would obviously very much like to get some PCP Ammo polymer-cased rifle/machine gun ammo into DR writer/contributor and …

                          Comment

                          • LRRPF52
                            Super Moderator
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 8569

                            That's got my attention.

                            30% reduction in soldier's load plus .260 Remington performance, and you have something.

                            The mags are still big, but weight reduction means something for sure.
                            NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                            CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                            6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                            www.AR15buildbox.com

                            Comment

                            • Sticks
                              Chieftain
                              • Dec 2016
                              • 1922

                              Funny.

                              Can't use lead bullets anymore, but by god, we will litter the battlefield with plastic that will never ever corrode away.
                              Sticks

                              Catchy sig line here.

                              Comment

                              • stanc
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 3430

                                Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                                Funny.

                                Can't use lead bullets anymore, but by god, we will litter the battlefield with plastic that will never ever corrode away.
                                Worries about littering the battlefield with plastic cartridge cases.

                                Last edited by stanc; 03-11-2018, 08:46 PM.

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