New Cartridge Developments and Implications for Dismounted Infantry Soldiers

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  • stanc
    Banned
    • Apr 2011
    • 3430

    Originally posted by cory View Post
    I don't think he meant that platform, but the caseless ammunition technology.
    No, he was clearly referring to the machine gun. Again, from post #170:
    Originally posted by LRRPF52
    The LSAT LMG also has a counter-recoiling operation that makes it so that not only is it more accurate and easier to shoot than the SAW, it also out-performs the M4 on the qual lanes.

    It also changes things in that the entire concept of our MTO&E gets turned on is head since you have a very lightweight system that can be used for everything a rifleman, SAW gunner, and DM do, as LSAT has select-fire capability. When the new KAC carbines were deadlined during the testing, the guys pulled the Leupold Mk.6 optics off them, and tried them on the LSAT using SEMI to engage targets out to 800m effectively.
    Originally posted by cory View Post
    You're still living in the AR15 world buddy. With caseleess ammunition why would we be subjected to a 115gr limit?
    AR15 or LSAT, brass cased or CT ammo, it doesn't matter. As I understand it, there is a maximum practical length (which varies depending upon caliber) that a bullet can be made, without running into stability issues. For a 6.5mm "green" projectile, that length is reached at a weight of circa 110 grains. At least that's what I've been told by those more knowledgeable about the subject than I am.
    Last edited by stanc; 05-18-2015, 04:43 PM.

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    • stanc
      Banned
      • Apr 2011
      • 3430

      Originally posted by Variable View Post
      I wish I were CIC for a day or more. I'd ban "green" consideration from projectile construction, and seek legislation forever forbidding such BS from even being a tiny thought related to our ammo.
      I find such complaints about using "green" bullets a bit amusing. Everyone seems to forget that during the latter years of World War II, the standard combat load of the US military -- .30 M2AP -- had a "light green" projectile, with nearly full-length steel core, and very little lead.

      Below, left: .30 M2AP bullet





      Also, one of the bullets most admired by military small arms enthusiasts is that used in 5.45x39 ammo. It also is of "light green" construction, with a long steel core and minimal lead.





      Going "green" in military bullets ain't necessarily a bad thing.
      Last edited by stanc; 05-18-2015, 05:04 PM.

      Comment

      • cory
        Chieftain
        • Jun 2012
        • 2985

        If a steel core bullet best meets the Grunt's needs, then by all means lets load them up with some steel core bullets.

        I think what Variable was concerned with, and it is a perfectly valid concern, is that we may be going to a steel core bullet at the expense of the Grunt. The latter is not okay.
        Last edited by cory; 05-18-2015, 04:50 PM.
        "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

        Comment

        • stanc
          Banned
          • Apr 2011
          • 3430

          Originally posted by stanc View Post
          The LSAT 5.56mm cases are a little less than 0.5" diameter, ~20% fatter than brass cased 5.56 NATO, which would make the height and width of a 30-rd LSAT magazine comparable to a 30-rd 7.62 NATO or .45 ACP magazine. That might be a bit too bulky for some people's taste. (And keep in mind, 6.5mm CT rounds would be even fatter...)
          Came across this pic showing 5.56mm and 7.62mm LSAT rounds:


          That gives a rough idea of the size that 6.5mm CT ammo would be.

          Comment

          • BluntForceTrauma
            Administrator
            • Feb 2011
            • 3897

            Stan, you always come up with great photos!
            :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

            :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

            Comment

            • LRRPF52
              Super Moderator
              • Sep 2014
              • 8569

              Originally posted by stanc View Post
              Yeah. I'm wondering just what all is wrong with it. I mean, I have to think it has one or more problems we're not privy to.

              Otherwise, if it's as marvelous as we're being told, why hasn't it been adopted and fielded, already?
              They don't just field the stuff overnight. LSAT is in the field proofing in combat test unit stages, to include testing up at Greeley, Alaska. They've already done at least one test platoon iteration up there for the extreme cold weather trials, and have done a 2-year operational test and evaluation program with a group of Infantrymen at Fort Benning.

              This thing introduces changes so significant, that it forced them to re-look at MTO&E. All the soldiers that have used it favor it over the SAW, from the unsolicited reports I've been seeing. The SAW's days are numbered I think, which would be a heaven-send for any dismounted combat arms unit. The LMG itself weighs only 9.4lbs, and the ammo is 40% lighter.

              They've been using both SS109/M855 and M855A1 projectiles in the Cased Telescoping cartridges. In 2012, it had already reached Technology Readiness Level 7, with 8 prototypes functioning superbly in field tests at Benning to the tune of 25,000 rounds.

              The guys who have experience on the SAW who have been testing LSAT have fallen in love with it, and don't ever want to lug the SAW around again, or deal with its constant malfunctions.
              NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

              CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

              6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

              www.AR15buildbox.com

              Comment

              • LRRPF52
                Super Moderator
                • Sep 2014
                • 8569

                If the LMG only weighs 9.4lbs, a carbine with a belt-fed mechanism could weigh what an M4 does. With the right configuration of the weapon, you could have an Adaptable Weapon System with 50-100rds on the gun as the norm. Magazines don't really appeal to me with the capabilities LSAT brings to the table and the mag-fed carbine design concept they show is much bulkier than the LMG.

                Why ruin a good thing? The logical approach for now would be to pursue a 6.5mm LMG, and take it toe-to-toe with M240L and PKM's to show what we already know.

                Drop the SAW and M240 like bad habits in the same move as they build the production lines up for the 6.5mm projectiles. Leave M4's with the M4A2 program upgrades, and let units start to see that this system could make the assault rifle obsolete. I can tell you right now that the first time more senior NCO's and soldiers with combat experience get their hands on a 9.4lb LMG with ammo that weighs 40% less than current 5.56, lightbulbs are going to start going off.

                I can hear even the PSG right now. "Hell, with a shorter barrel, I could carry one of these and not think twice about it!"

                Squad Leaders and Team Leaders will be thinking the same thing. Biggest question for me right now is what will happen with Grenadiers.
                NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO

                CCW, CQM, DM, Long Range Rifle Instructor

                6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks & chamber brushes can be found here:

                www.AR15buildbox.com

                Comment

                • cory
                  Chieftain
                  • Jun 2012
                  • 2985

                  I get what you're saying here, man. I'll just ask one question. Do you want to clear a house/compound/block with 6 to 24 Grunts, who ALL have open bolt, fully automatic weapons?
                  "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin

                  Comment

                  • stanc
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2011
                    • 3430

                    Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                    If the LMG only weighs 9.4lbs, a carbine with a belt-fed mechanism could weigh what an M4 does. With the right configuration of the weapon, you could have an Adaptable Weapon System with 50-100rds on the gun as the norm. Magazines don't really appeal to me with the capabilities LSAT brings to the table...

                    Why ruin a good thing? The logical approach for now would be to pursue a 6.5mm LMG, and take it toe-to-toe with M240L and PKM's to show what we already know.

                    Drop the SAW and M240 like bad habits in the same move as they build the production lines up for the 6.5mm projectiles. Leave M4's with the M4A2 program upgrades, and let units start to see that this system could make the assault rifle obsolete. I can tell you right now that the first time more senior NCO's and soldiers with combat experience get their hands on a 9.4lb LMG with ammo that weighs 40% less than current 5.56, lightbulbs are going to start going off.

                    I can hear even the PSG right now. "Hell, with a shorter barrel, I could carry one of these and not think twice about it!"

                    Squad Leaders and Team Leaders will be thinking the same thing.
                    First, let me say I do like the idea of a belt-fed weapon for every infantryman. But, I question if the leadership would go for it, since those at higher levels historically have been conservative and somewhat resistant to change.

                    Also, I doubt that a 6.5mm LSAT LMG will be nearly as light as the 5.56mm version. Depending upon what performance is required, a 6.5mm LMG may be nearly as heavy as the 7.62mm version, which has an estimated weight of 18 lbs. Even if you can cut a couple pounds off the weight of a carbine, how many of those platoon sergeants, squad leaders and team leaders are going to want to lug around a 14-16 lb weapon?

                    One other thing: I don't know how close to your 0.550 BC can be achieved in a practical, lead-free bullet, but it seems certain that for maximum BC the 6.5mm projectile will be significantly longer than the current M80 ball round. Which means the 6.5mm CT cartridge will likely be about the same (2.25") length and weight as 5.56 NATO.
                    Biggest question for me right now is what will happen with Grenadiers.
                    Follow the USMC lead and give them 6-shot, M32 grenade launchers?

                    Comment

                    • Variable
                      Chieftain
                      • Mar 2011
                      • 2403

                      Originally posted by stanc View Post
                      I find such complaints about using "green" bullets a bit amusing. Everyone seems to forget that during the latter years of World War II, the standard combat load of the US military -- .30 M2AP -- had a "light green" projectile, with nearly full-length steel core, and very little lead.

                      Below, left: .30 M2AP bullet





                      Also, one of the bullets most admired by military small arms enthusiasts is that used in 5.45x39 ammo. It also is of "light green" construction, with a long steel core and minimal lead.





                      Going "green" in military bullets ain't necessarily a bad thing.
                      Like Cory said, my issue is with them ever bringing bullshit "environmental concerns" into the mix. When we put steel into ammo in WW2 it was only because it made sense in placing holes and killing people.

                      If they found a special fairy flower that was 100% lethal and flew straight and flat? Fine, even if it was "renewable".LOL I'd shoot fairy flowers all day, but only because they worked better. NOT because of any BS environmental concerns.

                      They need to pull their heads out of their a$$es on that stuff. Ivan and Chang don't care two squats about how "green" their bullets are, only that they can kill you with them.

                      Next they'll be grounding US aircraft to avoid CO2 emmisions...... Political Correctness will be the death of our nation.
                      Last edited by Variable; 05-19-2015, 03:00 PM.
                      Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                      We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                      Comment

                      • Variable
                        Chieftain
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 2403

                        Originally posted by LRRPF52 View Post
                        They don't just field the stuff overnight. LSAT is in the field proofing in combat test unit stages, to include testing up at Greeley, Alaska. They've already done at least one test platoon iteration up there for the extreme cold weather trials, and have done a 2-year operational test and evaluation program with a group of Infantrymen at Fort Benning.

                        This thing introduces changes so significant, that it forced them to re-look at MTO&E. All the soldiers that have used it favor it over the SAW, from the unsolicited reports I've been seeing. The SAW's days are numbered I think, which would be a heaven-send for any dismounted combat arms unit. The LMG itself weighs only 9.4lbs, and the ammo is 40% lighter.

                        They've been using both SS109/M855 and M855A1 projectiles in the Cased Telescoping cartridges. In 2012, it had already reached Technology Readiness Level 7, with 8 prototypes functioning superbly in field tests at Benning to the tune of 25,000 rounds.

                        The guys who have experience on the SAW who have been testing LSAT have fallen in love with it, and don't ever want to lug the SAW around again, or deal with its constant malfunctions.

                        Only one quibble-- The 40% weight reduction (IIRC) was for caseless, and that isn't reliable yet (?). The cased telescoped was 12% lighter.
                        Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                        We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                        Comment

                        • Variable
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 2403

                          Originally posted by stanc View Post
                          Came across this pic showing 5.56mm and 7.62mm LSAT rounds:


                          That gives a rough idea of the size that 6.5mm CT ammo would be.
                          Sweet!

                          Either load a 6.5 projo into the 7.62 case, or split the difference a little bit between the 5.56 and 7.62 cases.
                          Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                          We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                          Comment

                          • BluntForceTrauma
                            Administrator
                            • Feb 2011
                            • 3897

                            Originally posted by Variable View Post
                            Next they'll be grounding US aircraft to avoid CO2 emmisions...... Political Correctness will be the death of our nation.
                            Ha! Good one. Forget "radar signature." Much more important is "carbon footprint."
                            :: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets

                            :: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::

                            Comment

                            • Variable
                              Chieftain
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 2403

                              Originally posted by cory View Post
                              I get what you're saying here, man. I'll just ask one question. Do you want to clear a house/compound/block with 6 to 24 Grunts, who ALL have open bolt, fully automatic weapons?
                              If they used a GOOD 6.5 bullet with excellent penetration capabilities?

                              "Y'all go ahead, I'll stay behind this very thick concrete wall...." LOL!!!




                              Just kidding!
                              Life member NRA, SAF, GOA, WVSRPA (and VFW). Also member WVCDL. Join NOW!!!!!
                              We either hang together on this, or we'll certainly HANG separately.....

                              Comment

                              • stanc
                                Banned
                                • Apr 2011
                                • 3430

                                Originally posted by Variable View Post
                                If they used a GOOD 6.5 bullet with excellent penetration capabilities?

                                "Y'all go ahead, I'll stay behind this very thick concrete wall...." LOL!!!

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