Video of Squad Designated Marksman Training by President's 100 Shooters

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  • LR1955
    Super Moderator
    • Mar 2011
    • 3355

    #16
    Originally posted by shotgun_wedding View Post
    I have some questions about this video compared to what they teach in Appleseed. Most of what they teach is identical or very close. There are some differences, though.

    For example, they teach the Olympic prone. The prone position they showed in the video seemed to have the shooter's body square with the barrel of the gun, rather than angled, as is shown in 'The Art of the Rifle'. Is that a personal preference, or does it make some difference?

    Another area is the trigger finger making contact with the stock/grip ('dragging wood'). That is discouraged at Appleseed, but was not mentioned in the video.

    My only experience with 'formal' marksmanship training has been at Appleseed.
    SW:

    As for the prone position you see in the film, it is what the Army instructs for shooting prone off of a bipod. The Army claims it is more stable and easier to swing the barrel left or right in tactical conditions, provides for better recoil control, and gives a smaller target from the front. The smaller target is problematic and if you are right handed, it is still difficult to swing a barrel to the right. As for recoil control, such a position is not the best but does work. It is not an ideal position for comfort or breathing over an extended period of time but it may be the only way a guy can go prone while wearing the body armor and rack. Fortunately, the stock is adjustable. A better position has the non firing leg pretty much straight behind the body and the firing side leg cocked up towards the chest some. Swinging the barrel is made much easier by swinging the non firing leg left or right and it is immensely easier to make elevation changes of the barrel by either extending or compressing the firing side leg. Furthermore, the firing side leg being cocked forward gives much better recoil control, which is very important with an M-14 as they do smack you out of position if you aren't pretty secure. It acts like a recoil spring. Much easier to breath, too. The problem with it is that the body armor prohibits such a position where your torso is somewhat twisted. That said, it is the most common prone position you will see for NRA High Power. The old 'leg or legs angled to one side' stuff is inefficient, lacks recoil control, and basically prohibits a shooter from being able to fine tune his position with his legs.

    BTW -- this is the first time I have ever seen formal Army instruction that rationally approaches breathing. I have heard breathing used as the reason for every imaginable marksmanship problem. Anything from blasting all over a target through all sorts of stringing. I even heard one NCO claim it was 'breathing' that was causing a zero group to be at the top of the zero target. In fact, the GI had his rear sight cranked up to 8 for zeroing and his grouping was excellent. He cranked it back down to 3(00) and zeroed to Army standards in a few minutes time. Don't fret any, although I got the breathing excuse somewhat cleared up for some guys over about a ten year period, it was supplanted by 'nose on charging handle', 'spot weld' (that can't happen with a AR design), 'cheek weld', and or 'pad of trigger finger', as being the reason for every mechanical or technical problem experienced by a Joe on a rifle range. He, he, he.

    I have never heard formal instruction ever offer that perhaps it is more important to pull a trigger when you see a good sight picture than it is to have your cheek mashed against the stock in a certain manner, or your nose crushed against the charging handle, or the pad of your finger on the trigger, dragging wood, or breathing, etc.

    Dragging wood was discussed by the NCO's although they didn't call it that. Probably not what you want to do with a rifle while shooting but it is a very minor issue that applies much more to the conventionally designed and over-sized stocks used on the 'Super Match' M-14's. You almost couldn't get away without dragging wood unless your fingers where about 8 inches long. Pistol grips have rendered 'dragging wood' obsolete although I am sure someone can force it if they want. Again though, a very minor issue at the stage of training of the guys in the film. Take my word for it, Joe will do what you ask of him. For example, if Joe thinks you are emphasizing mashing your cheek against the stock is a certain manner as being 'critical' to success, that is what he will do, even if by doing so he must strain his neck or eyes to get a lousy sight picture through his optic. Start out with what is absolutely critical (seeing and trigger pull) and Joe will adapt the rifle or himself accordingly.

    LR1955
    Last edited by LR1955; 04-06-2013, 01:10 PM.

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    • LR1955
      Super Moderator
      • Mar 2011
      • 3355

      #17
      Originally posted by Mic View Post
      Watched the first 15 min so far. Pretty good stuff. I did notice that a couple of the 4 rules of safety (don't point, finger off trigger) were routinely violated in there. Curious if they don't dwell on safety that much in the military, instead opting for the "well this gun's not loaded, so it doesn't make a difference" attitude.
      Mic:

      Guess no one answered you.

      It isn't an 'doesn't make a difference' attitude. For the Army, the guys were doing everything perfectly correct in terms of safety. The Army depends highly on Muzzle and Situational Awareness. I did not note anything in the film indicating these concepts were not being followed perfectly. The guys knew the condition of the rifles and did the right things at the right time.

      I do not expect civilians to maintain muzzle and situational awareness as for most civilians, excluding those involved in the more dangerous professions, there is no day to day need for them to develop these mental skills. So, they tend to come up with rules that try to prevent every possible problem and these rules can sometimes be contradictory or so nuanced that it becomes impossible for someone to follow them. When people think that the rules are so vague, so contradictory, or so complex that they can't possibly be followed, they tend to ignore all rules. Which of itself is pretty scary.

      LR1955

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